In the vast majority of crew districts it was a night away from home.Some roads had short runs where the trains did an out an back or could make a “loop” (e.g. on the RDG a train would run Reading to Philadelphia to Allentown, back to Reading). The ICG/IC was having crews swap out at the meeting point and run back home. But most crew run from home terminal to away from home terminal, wait for rest, then wait for their turn to come back up then run home, get their rest, wait for their turn to come up, tthen run to the away from home terminal, etc, etc.
The train speeds you provided the link to do count terminal dwell of a train. They are train level measures, not car level measures.
Actually they count hours. Single car shipments count transit time, bulk type shipments (coal , grain, rock) and private cars count cycle time.
I’m not leaning on any measures, I’m just explaining how the measures you brought up are actually measured and what they do, and do not mean.
You need to get out on a real main line sometime. 50 miles in 2 hours is a really bad day on many routes. There are a lot of routes where hundreds of miles of railroad average 30-40 mph between terminals.
IIRC jobs could be called/advertised as “turnaround service”. They would go out and then return to the home terminal. There would not be an away from home terminal. A lot of local freights operated this way. The crew could still be cut off en route and put in for rest, but they would go back on the clock for pay (not necessarily hours of service) after 8 hours rest and stay on pay until reaching the home terminal. This is from the 1970s, but it was probably not much different in the steam era.
Keep in mind that labor agreements vary from road to road and location to location.
Dave wrote:
You need to get out on a real main line sometime. 50 miles in 2 hours is a really bad day on many routes. There are a lot of routes where hundreds of miles of railroad average 30-40 mph between terminals.
Dave,That is a real main line.That’s part of Norfolk Southern’s Norfolk to Chicago main line and sees up to 60 trains per day including intermodules.
I think you need to go trackside with a scanner and stopwatch in hand and time trains between small cities…You will soon learn they are not speedsters…
I think what is happening is the difference in distances between facilities and locations in the East and West. I know I didn’t understand the difference - being raised in the East - until I actually moved and lived in the West. 100 miles or more between 2 “adjacent” towns is not unusual.
I have driven I-80 from Sacramento through California and Nevada where it parallels the UP (old SP) main line. I have seen many trains keeping pace for long stretches, especially through Nevada. I typically average 50 MPH driving over an 8-12 hour day when all stops are added in. It’s pretty disconcerting to take a potty or meal break in Winemucca and catch up with the same train about 90 miles further along - the same train I was pacing when I left the Interstate for the break. Based on my observations I can believe 50 MPH averages along portions of Western main lines where it’s mostly all through trains due to minimal inhabitation of the area.
Another interesting study in intense prototype operations is the Front Range line from Denver to Pueblo, CO. Train speeds are pretty slow (seldom above 45, even on the southern half), but rarely do trains stop along the 110 mile route - and I have no knowledge of ops north of Denver. There are parades of loaded coal trains going sou
Not the engines, they wouldn’t generally be turned and sent back, but would keep going thru to the next division. They would be serviced there, and might be sent back the next day on a train to where they started. At least with steam engines. With diesels, I know when Great Northern first got FTs it used to send them on a daytime passenger train from Mpls-St.Paul to Duluth-Superior, then they would be turned and sent back to the Twin Cities pulling an overnight freight or mail train.
However, the crew might do an “out and back” turnaround like that, although probably not 50-50. In “Thoroughbreds”, a book about the New York Central Hudsons, there’s a section (I think taken from an old newspaper story) about Bob Butterfield, famous NYC engineer featured in some Lionel train ads in the thirties. IIRC he took over a train in the morning heading north and ran it to the next division, then took over another passenger train around noon going the other direction, and ended up back home in the late afternoon. Then he would be off a day because the length of the trips caused him to earn two day’s pay in the one day.
BTW seems to me I just read somewhere that the 100 mi. rule was eventually changed to 130 mi.??
The basic day (which is what everybody keeps calling the “100 mile rule”) was increased several times.
Currently crew runs are now in the 150-250 mile range in the western US with a few bumping close to 300 miles.
I do hope that train and crew arrive together! I once worked with a woman whose perfume always got to the office thirty minutes before she did!
Interesting discussion regarding time and miles. In May 1971 my wife, son and I took Amtrak from Yakima, Wash. (via Pasco, Spokane and east thru Mont., ND, etc.) to Chicago. We were onboard for 45 hours and covered approx. 2000 miles. Average speed was about 45 mph. Now I know why it took so long with all that stopping for other trains and changing crews. 15 years later my sister and I drove non-stop almost parallel to the train route on Interstate 90 and made the trip in 32 hours. Our average speed was about 60 mph. We only stopped to buy gas when needed (approx. every 300 miles) and refuel our stomachs and drain our bladders. The train was a lot more fun and I still don’t mind that it took longer. The food and service was great! I just wish it wasn’t so expensive to travel cross country by train today.
Paul,No…The 100 miles was between terminals and once at your “away” terminal you waited for your call…
There’s nothing like being 14 or 15 out…That means you are stuck at least 20 hours at your "away "terminal…I have spent as high as 27 hours.
I could have deadheaded back but,you don’t make money doing that…
Almost all employers pay for an employee’s lodging and eating expenses for jobs far from home. Doubt this was true of railroad train crews, however. Is this still true in recent years?
Mark
They put us up at the Railroad YMCA and paid for one meal…
I believe today its a hotel and one meal?
Back to the 100 mi. rule…not sure if someone mentioned this, but before mechanical lubricators came along, steam engines couldn’t go very far before needing to be stopped and lubricated. Maybe 15-20 miles or so IIRC. So adding that in with other work being done along the trip, the 100 mi. rule when introduced probably was pretty realistic.
The "100 mile rule’ only had to do with how much the crew was paid. There was no restriction on how far the crew actually worked. Terminals ranged between 75 and 150 miles apart. It would be extremely rare to find terminals 100 miles apart. The terminals were set well before the “100 mile rule” was established.
Terminals weren’t 100 miles apart because that’s what they paid the crews, they 100 miles was about the average of how far the terminals were apart (and its a nice round number.)
The “100 mile rule” didn’t drive the location of the terminals, the location of the terminals drove the distance in the 100 mile rule.
The basic day (when it was 100 miles) usually read in the agreements something like 100 miles or 8 hours equals a basic day. (Again as mentioned previously, this isn’t a maximum. You went to work and if you only worked 7 hours or 95 miles, you were paid the full 100mi/8hrs.) That 100 miles equals a train doing 12 1/2 mph for 8 hours. I’ve read that one of labor’s (all groups not just RR) biggest goals was the 8 hour day. I wonder when the agreement was first made if that 12 1/2mph wasn’t close to the average over the road train speeds including delays for work, lubrication, fueling and water etc. Of course some would do better and some would do worse, but most would be in that range.
Maybe if the average train speed had been slower or faster, that original distance for 8 hours would’ve been more or less than 100 miles. (The current 130 mile basic day equals 16.25mph for 8 hours)
As to lodging and meals today here’s how it is I work. The railroad pays for the motel room. For meals we get a $6.00 allowance for the first 12 hours away from home. If you’re there longer than 12 hours, you get another $6.00. So if you’re off duty away from home 11 hrs and 59 mins, you get $6.00. If you’re there for 35 hours (done this a couple of times) you get $12.00. Others may have different contract provisions.
Jeff
PS There was a great article in Trains some time back about how crews are called and how pay is figured etc.
Hi, don’t know much about the rule, but my experience on the California Zephyr was the first crew change out of Chicago was Ottumwa in Iowa, a distance of 279 miles. The crew out of Denver handed over at Grand Junction, Colorado a distance of 273 miles.
As to lodging and meals today here’s how it is I work. The railroad pays for the motel room. For meals we get a $6.00 allowance for the first 12 hours away from home. If you’re there longer than 12 hours, you get another $6.00. So if you’re off duty away from home 11 hrs and 59 mins, you get $6.00. If you’re there for 35 hours (done this a couple of times) you get $12.00. Others may have different contract provisions.
Jeff
Ah,That’s the way of it today…Sounds like a better deal.[tup]