"1159" Yes! "1201" Yes! "1200" Never!

Trains Magazine General Discussion
1

Maybe the practice is out-of-date, but do railroads still have an aversion to displaying a time value at the top-of-the-hour?

Let me better explain by means of an example.

A maintenance of way foreman may want to have a train dispatcher issue a Form B track bulletin the next day to protect his men and machines working on a main track. The foreman may want the order to run from 6:00am to 5:00pm; but, in all likelihood the train dispatcher will have the order read from 0601 to 1701, not 0600 to 1700 as the foreman requested.

Years ago in the train order and timetable days, a train dispatcher might put out a train order reading something like this:

“Extra 643 West has right over all trains and waits at Able until 1201 Baker until 1301 and Charlie until 1501” (never “1200,” “1300,” and “1500”).

It seems that 1-minute after the hour was standard practice, 59-minutes after the hour and anything in between was okay as well, but expressing a time at the top of the hour was strictly VERBOTEN! Why do you suppose that is (or was)?

2

The only top of the hour aversion that I can remember on a consistent basis was to noon and midnight, probably because of the AM/PM difference.

3

I remember yard jobs being dispatched at 11:55 yard office or 7:55 hump job. Always 5 min before the hour.

4

The last I remember, ever since the railroads adopted the 24-hour time format (aka: Military Time), operating personnel were permitted full use of the clock.

0000 is midnite.
1200 is noon.

My understanding is that while the above-listed times were legally acceptable, it was still suggested by management to avoid those two moments for safety’s sake.

Times, of course, may have changed since my day.
(The above sentence is, of course, pun intended)

5

Our Form B times usually use the even number, top of the hour, when that is the start/end time. Example 0700, 0800, 1900 etc. The only hour I haven’t seen is for midnight. There have been some B bulletins (usually derailments, etc) where a B will be in effect until 2359 and the next day’s B starts at 0001.

Is midnight 0000 hrs or 2400 hrs? I have a watch that inaddition to the hours 1 thru 12 in black has 13 thru 24 in red at the appropriate locations on the dial. Maybe to avoid that confusion, the B’s around midnight use 2359 and 0001.

I checked a copy of the first edition of GCOR, the last to have rules for train orders. It authorizes the use of continental time. I didn’t see the rule prohibiting the use of even hours for train orders, but the examples in the forms of orders used 201 instead of 200, 801 instead of 800, etc.

Even though even hours were prohibited in train orders, I have line-ups where they were used for the estimated times of trains. Such as 10AM, 12PM, 4PM etc. The times for the line-ups being in effect used 701am instead of 700am or 7am, etc.

Jeff

6

I don’t believe all roads use the 24 hour clock…

And I think the use of the minute instead of the whole hour has been in use to avoid any confusion as to the time. I think operators and dispatachers feel they themselves could be confused so err on the side of safety by going a minute after. The most confusing two hours of the day are 12 Noon and 12 Midnight. In effect there really isn’t a 12 PM nor 12AM but rather noon and midnight with the minute after being the safest and least confusing way of dealing with it.

7

At CN’s Shops Yard in North Fond du Lac, WI the North Yard switch jobs are frequently the "10 o’clock job or other “top-of-the-hour” job. At least that’s how they’re called on the radio between road trains, the Yarmaster, and the various U-men & departments.

8

The two USA rulebooks that I have, Southern of 1943, and RI in the early fifties, both state that even hours are not to be used in writing train orders. There is no reason given.

Incidentally, 12:00 am is properly twelve hours before Meridian (when the sun is at its highest point) or midnight, and 12:00 pm is properly twelve hours after Meridian, or midnight. Noon could well be expressed as 12:00 m–and time was when it was so expressed.

When it became customary to use lightface to indicate morning and bold face to indicate afternoon, the custom was to change from one to the other at 1:00, and not at 12:00. Now, when the distinction is shown, 12:01 is one minute past noon, and 12:01 is one minute past midnight.

Of course, the twenty-four hour system leaves no doubt as to whether the time is before noon or after noon, but it is confusing to people who have grown up with am and pm, and many have trouble converting the after noon times to pm times.

9

To muddy this situation. One company I worked for had 2 different computer systems. Some applications would only recognized 2400 and others only 0000 and other applications both. So when they talked to each other they would transfer either number depending on the application. So we then never used either number after that. Unfortunately some subtraction or additions would come up 2400 or 0000. Computer geeks claimed it would cost too much to change. (took over 2 yrs). Boy did they take a ribbing evey time we saw one of the geeks. The lame jokes really came out such as “is the time fat or lean”.

10

Even Trains Forums…----------

11

The old standard code of Operating Rules, on which almost every railroad based its own rule books, had a provision which appears as part of Rule 206 in the L&N’s Rules of the Operating Department: “Even hours as ‘10:00 AM’ must not be used in stating time in train orders.” Other than in train orders, even hours were used on the railroad as much as elsewhere. Shifts more often than not began on an even hour. Public timetables and even employee timetables would show even hours, except for 12:00 midnight and 12:00 noon, where AM or PM would not be appropriate. I’m looking at a Tennessee Central Employees’ Timetable which shows No. 81 leaving its initial station at 3:00 PM.

12

As long as I’ve been on the railroad, Midnight is the only time that I’ve seen an aversion to. It’s caused a perceived aversion to a few other times, because the yard jobs start eight hours apart: 0759, 1559, and 2359. Other start times are on even hours, as necessary (or half-hours). Of course, I haven’t been in a position to deal with the train-order rules (I’ve had to read a few train orders, but never noticed the avoidance of even hours).

13

Roads that use computer systems for the majority of their record keeping use the 24 hour clock as it simplifies all time calculations. My carrier is averse to using 0000 as a time, however 1200 is acceptable.

14

We do the minute before the hour/ half hour here on the PTRA, but the reason is simple.

By starting jobs at 1 minute before, you fit three 8 hour shifts in a standard 24 hour “day”.

So we start jobs at 06:29, 14:29 and 11:59…

Some jobs start at 08:29, or 08:59, so forth and so on, but by starting at 1 minute before the hour or half hour, no job will hit the hours of service on the absolute beginning of following 24 hour “day”

Lets say we started a job at 12 noon, or 1200 hours, and they hog out, then they hog out on the following 24 hour clock.

But if they start at 11:59, and work the full 12 hours, they reach the hours of service and still tie up on the same 24 hour “day”.

Keeps the rest hours and hours of service stuff a lot more simple.

Under the hours of service, you can work 2 eight hour shifts in a 24 hour day.

If you started at 12 midnight, worked 8, were off 8, the worked the next 8, you could argue you exceed the two 8 hour shift because you worked into the following 24 hour day.

Is 0000 the beginning of a new “day”, or the end of the last day?

By starting a minute before midnight, you work from one 24 hour day into the next, then have 8 off, then start you 2nd shift just before the next 24 hour day starts.

This way, the second 8 hour shift is a double, (paid at time and a half).

If you started straight up at the hour, the carrier could argue you were only working one 8 hour shift in a 24 hour day, because your next shift would be starting on the following 24 hour clock “day”.

Look at it like this…

If the “day” starts at 0000…

I started at midnight (0000 hours) on the 1st, worked 8 hours, to 8 am…rested till 4 pm and worked the next 8 hour shift…when I tie up, I am tying up in/on the next 24 hour day, at midnight on the 2nd.

Did I work two 8 hour shifts in the same day, or did I work one 8 hour shit on day, and one on the following day?

15

Thanks, everyone, for your input. It all makes a lot more sense now.

As for this evening, between March 13th @ 1800 and March 14th @ 0600, the start of the new day happened at either of these two times:

March 13th @ 2400 or March 14th @ 0000.

For all intents and purposes, both times are exactly the same.

16

Check your computer clock…there is not 2400…

You go from 23:59:59 to 00:00:00 on the new day.

17

Okay, I still don’t understand why even numbered times cannot be used on train orders.

18

It was not all even numbered times, but only even hours that were prohibited. Perhaps we need to go back to the beginning of the use of train orders to learn why this prohibition was in effect.

19

Ed…

You just violated the Railway Security Improvement Act. You need 10 hours undisturbed rest following your shift. Now I have to report you to the FRA! [swg]

  • I go on duty at 0100
  • I go off duty at 0900
  • 10 hours rest, I can’t be called until 1900
  • 1900 + 2 hour call, the soonest I can return to work is 2100 hours.
  • While you can START two shifts on the same day, it is impossible to COMPLETE two 8 hour shifts on the same day.
  • If you work more the 10 hours, you can only work one shift a day.

On to the question at hand…

The majority of our regular assigned jobs either sign up on the hour or half hour, excepting midnight. Any job nominally signing up at midnight either signs up at 2359 or 0001. Any planned work authorities are also effective and canceled on the hour or half hour, again excepting midnight.

Our computers will not allow you to tie up a ticket at 2400/0000 either.

Nick

20

Yes, I have seen a number of digital clocks that display “23:59:59” and then one second later display “00:00:00,” but I’ve also worked with computer systems that will accept, for example, 03/15 @ 2400 or 03/16 @ 0000 as equivalent time values.