3D printing - copyright violations? specifically relating to dwarf signals

Burt Industries years ago used to make and sell signal bridges in N scale…he took Bachmann signal bridges and bash them together for 2 to 4 track bridges…he made rubber molds, cast them, added LED`s then sold them.

It’s a 3D model, not a program. Don’t bother hiring anyone. Just learn to use Sketchup. Go to Youtube and type Sketchup Basic Tutorial into the search box and you’ll get hundreds of videos. A dwarf signal shouldn’t be too difficult. Just make sure you’re not going below the minimum thicknesses for walls and such. And if you want to fit LEDs into them, you’ll need to design it to accomodate them.

I still think that modifying existing LEDs might be an easier method. Here’s another page from that same site I linked to. Scroll down a bit and there are quite a few other options that would work for dwarf lamps.

http://www.moreleds.com/

Steve S

Steve:

Thanks for correcting my reference to “program”. I have said many times that I am a computer dinosaur, so I’m not suprised that I didn’t get the terminology right.

The link you gave has some interesting options. I have looked at ready made electronic components in the past. I guess I am a little too fussy because they all look oversize to me for HO. Also, the signals will be towards the front of my layout so I want something reasonably realistic. One of the items looked great until I noticed that they were using 5mm LEDs. I personally think that 3mm is a stretch in HO. I would never be satisfied with 5mm monsters on the layout.

Thanks also for suggesting Sketchup. I am downloading it as I write. However, before I get into that sort of thing in detail I will have to get a better idea of whether or not 3D Printing would be cost effective. I’m going to send Shapeways another e-mail asking if they can give me a better idea of the costs involved as well as what I could expect in terms of quality of finish. I don’t want something that I have to spend a lot of time filing or sanding to get it to look right.

Your suggestions are appreciated.

Dave

Don’t bother. They won’t be able to give you a final price until your 3D model is completed. Costs are based on the amount of material used, measured in cubic centimeters. That includes any sprues that you use to hold the parts together. Here’s the page for pricing things in Frosted and Frosted Ultra.

http://www.shapeways.com/materials/frosted-detail-plastic

Steve S

Steve:

Thanks for the pricing link.

Dave

Edit: I did some rough calculations based on the maximum size of the bounding box for the ultra fine frosted printing. I think I could get two signals from each print. If I understand the pricing that would work out to about $8.50 each. That is reasonable IMO. It is certainly less than the RTR signals although I would still have to add in the costs for LEDs and resistors etc.

Dave, for that amount of money, $8.50 each, why not just buy the real thing.

I use operating dwarf signals from Tomar Industries in my passenger station and freight yard and sidings.

MB Klein has them in stock at $9 per dwarf signal.

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=tomar+dwarf

Rich

Actually, both. The 3D model is simply a dataset used to create a program for the printer head.

Rich:

The style I had in mind was more like the NJ International single head units. M B Klein has them for $15.99 US but they only show one colour aspect. I want to be able to show red or green simply for the purpose of showing switch alignment in my yard.

Dave

Check out the H-875 from Tomar Industries.

It looks very similar to the NJ International dwarf and it comes with a tri-colored LED, red, yellow, green.

You can wire it for just red/green if that is your preference.

A hobby shop on eBay is selling them for $10 apiece.

Rich

Hey Rich:

Thanks for the eBay lead. The price is good. I’m a bit stuck right now because if I want to have signals on every route of every turnout in my yard I am looking at about 30 units. That’s beyond what I was hoping to spend. Likewise with the 3D signals. I was hoping that they would come out much cheaper. I am questioning my math on the 3D price calculation. I think I misunderstood the size of the boundary box. I’ll go at that again.

Dave

It’s not the volume of the bounding box that determines price. It’s the actual volume of material used. The bounding box is just a reference to make sure you don’t exceed the maximum size of the printer.

Steve S

Hi again Steve:

I understand that the bounding box represents the maximum size that an item can be printed, but I did misunderstand what the size of the box was. My math skills seemed to disappear at about the same time that my knees went south.[swg] The box is much bigger than I first thought. That raises the possibility of multiple signals being made in one printing, but the size of each signal stays the same so the cost per signal (i.e. number of cm3) will still work out the same.

For those following the thread, I found a very informative article in the October 1954 issue of MR. It explains very clearly how dwarf signals were used and where they were placed. In particular, I learned that there would be different colour indications depending on where each signal was located on the switch. I had naively assumed that I could just use green and red but the article points out that amber was also used in certain locations so I will now have to figure that into things. Not really a big deal actually given current LED technology. What scares me is that now that I better understand where the dwarf signals would be placed I apparently need 45 of the things to do my yard! Now you can see why I am trying to do them cheap!

Dave

There is a handling fee per object in addition to the material cost. If you have five signals connected together by sprue to form a single model, then the handling fee will apply to that as one model. (Of course the sprue will add to the cost of material, so keep it to a minimum.)

But if your model is just one signal, and you order five of them at one time, I think they’ll hit you for five handling fees. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong.

Steve S

Are you modeling a major urban passenger terminal?

Most freight yards did not have dwarf signals at every switch. Maybe one, two, or a handful to enter or leave a yard. What era, railroad and location are you modeling?

If you just want them because you think they are cool, good for you. But it is certainly not a must have in most prototype situations.

If you only want switch alignment indication, just look at the points. Simple and free.

The article is about something those guys did on a layout that was meant to have all the whiz bang gizmos and gadgets. It is not necessarily typcial railroad practice for the average freight yard.

Alco_fan:

Ya - I’m going a bit nuts here. It is a small yard with a total of 15 turnouts. I’m beginning to realize that the logistics of installing and wiring 45 dwarf signals could be a bit daunting. However, I think they look neat and I really want them in my yard. I mean no disrespect here, but “its my railroad and I will do what I want”! So what if it looks like a flattened Christmas tree![swg][(-D][(-D] And besides, why should I not have all the"whiz bang gizmos and gadgets" that I want? Now I’m sounding like a spoiled brat![(-D]

The biggest challenge will be doing all the wiring, not just for the dwarf signals, but for all the other details like street lights, main line signals, structure lighting, switch machines etc. etc. plus of course the power buses and track feeders. I would like to have a staging level below the main layout but I haven’t figured out how to do that without blocking access to the underside of the main layout. I am thinking that I might have to build the staging in segments after the main layout is wired.

Have no fear! I will figure it out!![C):-)][swg][(-D]

Dave

Steve:

The handling fee is just one more question to ask. Logic suggests that it would only be charged once per print, hopefully.

Dave

Dave,

Faced with the likelihood of coming up with 30 to 45 dwarf signals, have you thought abut making your own operating dwarf signals?

Here are some links to some excellent tutorials:

http://www.nyx.net/~jpurbric/railroads/dwarfs/

http://abrams_railroad.home.comcast.net/~abrams_railroad/DwarfSignals.pdf

You can also buy pre-assembled enclosures dirt cheap. I have used these on portions of my layout:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/20-HO-SCALE-DWARF-SIGNAL-LEDS-3MM-BIPOLAR-RED-GREEN-/231134070040

If the ones on eBay don’t exactly look like dwarfs, you can always fabricate the shrouds out of thin styrene.

Alos, note that an HO scale dwarf signal is pretty small, so most of the detail is lost, once placed on the layout.

Rich

I mentioned those in a previous post but he said he wanted something more prototypical. You mention you’ve got some. I was wondering how thick the plastic was. Do you think it’s thick enough to round over the top edges so it looks like this…

http://home.comcast.net/~regalpug/dy_j3.html

Steve S

For the most part, I use Tomar Industries 2-light (green over red) dwarf signals.

But I do have some of those shown in that eBay link.

Rich

Rich:

Thanks for the links to the scratch built dwarfs. The first one looks very realistic, not so much the second. I have worked with bi-colour SMD LEDs before but they may have been bigger than those used in the second tutorial. The ones I used were about the same width as a 3mm regular LED so I don’t see an advantage to using SMDs. I only used them because I needed something flat to fit in the space.

Anyhow, I had been considering making them myself so the videos were very helpful.

Dave