#6 Atlas Code 83 turnout doesn't

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

Interesting problem. I put a #6 Code 83 Atlas Snap track turnout on my layout. Whenever I get a section built I hand roll a 40’ boxcar along the section to make sure the rails align and there are no surprises. Well, I found one.

When going from the point rails towards the frog the car continues along the straight section and doesn’t go onto the turnout section. Holding the throwbar actuator tightly makes no difference. The car does NOT derail.

So, is the problem because

  1. The car is too light? I need to add 1.5 oz to meet RP20.1;

  2. Is the track out of gauge?

  3. does it need an electric throw enging to hold the critter in place?

Thank you.

2

If the car does not take the diverging route when the points are thrown for the diverging route the problem almost is certainly with the turnout. This must be especially true if you are using the same forty foot boxcar for all your tests.

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The fact is does not derail has me a bit confused. The points must be so far off that it does not pick the flange for route direction, and the outer wheels do not end up in between the point and stock rails on the diverging side.

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Weird, to say the least.

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-Kevin

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3

I agree with Kevin.

Are both point rails moving? What you described is impossible, with the inside rail moving away from the curved rail the wheels will drop onto the ties derailing the car.

Mel

Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951

My Model Railroad
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

Bakersfield, California

I’m begi

4

Atlas turnouts are not like Pecos. They do need either a powered switch machine or at least a manual ground throw to hold the points against the stock rails.

5

If you can see that the points are in the correct position and held there firmly, then the top of the point is not flush with the top of the stock rail and the flange can’t ‘feel’ it. The throw bar may be thin or low, or it could actually be that the point doesn’t stay in position as the weight of the rolling stock runs over it and it flops over or deflects a bit.

6

I experienced a similar point rail problem with all seven of my not-all-that-old Atlas Snap Switch code 83 turnouts. After about only five years of light usage, all my locos began to derail and continuted doing so - but only when entering the divering route. The rolling stock never did because it never got to that point! However, exiting the diverging route was never a problem.

After measuring and re-measuring everything that could be measured, checking and re-checking all guages, eye balling the turnouts and the locos’ wheels (which bumped upward at precisely the same two locations on the point rails) at table top level, assuring flat surfaces, visiting with the local hobby shop, etc., etc., I finally called M.B. Klein, where I had purchaed most of the turnouts.

The store (and presumably its cutomsers too) had also experienced the same problem with an entire batch of Atlas Snap Switch turnouts, to the extent that it returned a whole bundle. The diagnosed cause - with which I agree - is that the point rails are so thin and flimsy (Chinese made these days, of course) that they gradually - and ultimately - bend outward when the locos and rolling stock cross them, leading to derailment nearly 100% of the time. You can easily see the difference between the sturdy build of the Peco and Shinohara point rails when compared to those of Atlas. No contest.

I wonder if the low-quality build and materials of your turnouts are somehow creating this problem for you. Or, it could be you simply got a bad batch. Klein can probably help you out here.

My solution: I went with Walthers Shinohara turnouts (yet to be installed).

7

Pictures would help.

Not to be too picky here, but an Atlas #6 is not a “snap switch”, it is a “Custom Line” turnout.

A “snap switch” is a turnout that matches an 18" or 22" radius curve and has an all plastic frog.

It is possible for the points on an Atlas turnout to not be correctly seated in the throw bar. Again, pictures would help.

Considering the large number of people successfully using Atlas turnouts, this problem is most likely a rare defect, or damage to the turnout.

But as noted above, an Atlas turnout generally requires a switch machine or ground throw to hold the points correctly against the stock rails.

Sheldon

8

I noticed that, too. There was a discussion recently in HOn3 Critter’s (Dave) thread about building a club layout. Dave was having problems with the bunch of Atlas turnouts the club had purchased. I had pointed out that the points were a plated, zinc alloy and very flimsy. They would flop (roll) and not press tightly against the stock rail.

Sure enough one broke on him while he was trying to adjust it. I believe they sent all them back, too.

My Shinohara/Walthers turnouts are going on 25 years old and are functioning very well, thank you.

Be extremely careful if you try to make any adjustments to the point. Yes, as Sheldon mentions, sometimes it is the throwbar not engaged fully in the eye on the turnout.

Good Luck, Ed

9

Sheldon makes a very good point. My club recently purchased about 60 Atlas Code 83 Customline #6 turnouts, and it was my job to tune them up. I found several where the point rails were not sitting properly on the throw bar. If you turn the turnout over so you can see the bottom of the throwbar you can see that there are tabs on the point rails with holes in them and these are supposed to sit on the fairly short pins on the throwbar. The tabs are easily displaced from the pins. That will allow the point rail to move out of position which can cause the problem that you are experiencing.

FYI, the pins are designed to allow the point rails to be disengaged from the throwbar fairly easily in order for the throwbar to be reversed. It’s kind of a flimsy arrangement but apparently not too many people have problems with it.

While you are working on the turnouts, you might want to do a bit of a tuneup. On about half the turnouts I was working on, the tip of the point rails did not fit tightly against the stock rails. I had to bend the tips ever so slightly to close the gap. If the point rail tips do not fit tightly into the stock rails the wheels will ‘pick’ the point rails. In other words, they will catch on the tips of the point rails which may knock them off the rails. This is especially true of the leading trucks on steam engines.

While you are at it, check the tops of the point rails. I had a couple that had a tiny bit of flash that stuck up above the stock rails. Just another cause for derailments.

Another thing to check is the height of the frog. In almost all of the turnouts that I worked on the frog was higher than the frog rails (frog rails are the rails that lead up to the frog from the main and diverging routes). The difference in height will cause the wheels to bounce over the frog which

10

Hi Real Gomer and Ed:

Please let me clarify this discussion a bit:

The turnout with the point rail tab that broke was an Atlas Customline Code 83 #8, not a #6. The difference is important because the two turnouts are not made the same way. The #8 turnout had cast point rails whereas the #6 had stamped point rails. I’m not sure which of the two turnouts is the more recent design, or even if Atlas has changed the designs, but the important point is that the cast point rails on the #8 were very fragile whereas the stamped point rails on the #6 were not easily broken. (Edit: I just signed up for the Atlas forums. My membership application is still pending acceptance. Once I get onto the Atlas forum I will ask which turnout designs are the current ones). I can’t speak as to whether or not the #6 point rails are too flimsy for reliable operation because we don’t have the layout running yet, but I will say that, to me, the Atlas stamped point rails are as sturdy as Peco point rails. I can’t see there being a problem with them. Fortunately we only bought one #8 turnout for test purposes. One of the point rails on that turnout was noticably out of alignment, hence the attempt to straighten it out which led to the point rail tab breaking off. We are using the Atlas #6 turnouts.

FWIW, I gave the damaged #8 turnout to another club member who thought he could repair it easily by replacing the throw bar with a copper clad circuit board tie. Unfortunately he discovered that the cast point rails

11

Just to clarify, the code 83 #4 and #6 points have always been stamped, and the #8 points have always been cast.

I suspect Atlas felt the cast points were necessary on the #8 due to longer length.

And, I know lots of modelers, most with large layouts, who have decades of pretty heavy use on thse turnouts with no problems, despite their “cheap” design.

I have nearly 100 of them myself.

Sheldon

12

This has happened to one or two of my #6s as well. As others have mentioned, sometimes the point rails aren’t totally seated in the throw bar tabs correctly, either because of assembly QC or a bit of flash. Try popping them out and reseating them.

13

I agree. Over the weekend, I was testing some new track work, and I did what the OP said he did. I pulled the throwbar with my finger to the divergent route. The freight car that I used for testing when through the straight route…and without derailing.

I doubt that the Atlas turnout is bad. Those point rails really need to be snug up against the stock rails. I sometimes use a track nail to hold the throwbar in a fixed position while testing.

Rich

14

I even glued (with CA) those flimsy point rails in the throwbars once they began coming loose each time the turnout was engaged. Didn’t do any good in eliminating derailments.

15

It seems to me there is more troubleshooting one could do when faced with an irritating problem such as this. For example, does using the same car but pointed in the other direction produce the same result? Using different cars? Using a bunch of cars coupled together? Is there gunk build up on the wheel treats? Are the wheels Code 88?

When you say you hand roll the car - are you pushing it and letting go so it rolls on its own through the turnout? Or if you keep your finger on top of the car could you be subtly pushing it away from the diverging route?

Sometimes there are strange interactions between particular cars and particular turnouts, and I try not to draw hasty conclusions from testing with one car.

He says the car is too light. So - does lightly putting your finger on top of the car take care of the problem or change the results?

He asks if the track is out of gauge. You’re the one with the track - and presunmably an NMRA standards gauge to check it with. Could be. Or maybe the wheels on the car could be. Or both.

Is the track on the level? This can also affect how flanges follow the points.

This is to be a sure an odd problem even given the nature of Atlas turnouts. Short of all of us going to RealGomer’s house we’re shooting in the dark.

Dave Nelson

16

Really? I could have told you in advance that would turn out badly.

The points need to pivot as the throw bar moves.

Defects do happen, and sometimes they happen to whole batch of product.

But I have operated hundreds of hours on numerious layouts built with hundreds of ATLAS Custom Line code 83 turnouts without any of these failures described here.

One guy I know, in total defiance to even my own comments above, has operated his layout without switch machines or ground throws on his ATLAS #6 turnouts for nearly 20 years now.

OK, 20 years ago was a different production run, maybe a different factory in China, but they work fine…

Sheldon

17

Well, Dave, first you fly into either Columbus or Cincinnati… I’m going to try the suggestions others have made. Thankfully I haven’t soldered any of the junctions yet and my trust putty knife pops everything off the roadbed with no trouble.

18

Well, Choo-choo Charlies, i hooked two cars together (2.6 oz & 2.7 oz although both should be closer to 4 oz) and pushed then pulled them through. The outside diverter rail definitely moved away from the outside rail. Interestingly, when throwing the switch for straight thru traffic there’s definite click as the throw locks in place. When moving it to the bypass position, no click or locking. I bought the switch with a gift card so I’m not out any real money. All curves are 22".

Here’s the link on Atlas site of the switch in question:

https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-81-ho-code-83-manual-snap-switch-right.aspx

19

Well now we know the problem, that is a “Snap Switch”, which is NOT a #6.

Snap Switches are not sized by number, they are sized by radius, 22" or 18".

And your further description of the problem explains it. That little gismo on the side with the slide button, that is a the manual switch machine or “ground throw” people here have been refering to.

Your switch is fine, but the manual switch machine is broken inside. It clips on, look at the bottom of the switch. Get a new one, all will be well.

Sheldon

20

Additional note to the other posters following this.

I have about 100 Atlas custom line #6 turnouts in my train room. Some still installed on sections of the old layout, some never installed but old stock, 15-20 years, some salvaged from sections of the old layout already dismantled, and a few brand new ones just purchased a few months ago.

I took a few minutes to run some quick tests and to compare the old and new production turnouts.

Guess what? No trouble found, on old or new, several different fgreight cars rolled through turnouts without switchmachines without issue, thru either route, simply by positioning the points and not touching anthing while rolling the car thru.

BUT, I did notice one dramatic difference between the old and new turnouts. The brand new #6’s, about a dozen of them, do not have the raised frog problem common on my older ones that needed correction by filing them down.

Otherwise, except a slight difference in the color of the ties, old and new are made exactly the same, with of course the improvement of no raised frog on the newer ones.

I’m going to get in trouble here, but here goes. Are we that brainwashed? Shinohara, PECO? If it has a “foreign name” and/or costs more it must be “better” than the product with the long standing American company name?

Don’t get me wrong, those other companies make great products, I have used them in the past, and still use Shinohara (Walthers) turnouts for slip switches.

But for regular turnouts, Atlas works fine for me, have for 20 pus years.

Sheldon