Here’s a somewhat different “which DCC system is best” question. Should I go with:· a starter system and upgrade as needed, or · buy the end-need system now? And depending on the path, what system would you recommend?I’m currently laying track with the expectation of have a running “Plywood-Central” within 2 years. From a DCC standpoint, I’m starting from zilch. I have an assortment of old locos, some brass some not, and none have can motors or decoders. The near-term, need is to run 2-4 locos at a time (control can be tethered) with 2 operators, but I eventually want radio controlled DCC to accommodate up to 8-10 locos and 4 operators at a time. However the real need for all this capability may be (very optimistically) 5+ years from now.
I’m in the same boat Jim. I am finishing a 14’x32’ room for my layout. I have nothing as far as DCC equipment yet accept all my engines do have decoders installed. I have figured that purchasing an end-need system will save a fair amount of money in the long run, so I an planning to purchase a Digitrax Superchief 8 amp radio system. I chose Digitrax due to familiarity with the DT400 controller my friends use. NCE would also be a great choice also.
RF&PRR
Buy the end need system now. You’ll learn the system as you build your layout and install decoders. By the time your layout is up and running you’ll have a fleet of locos with decoders installed and be familiar with the ins and outs of your system.
I would recommend the NCE PowerHouse Pro system. Oone primary reason is that ease with which you can upgrade the PHP system. If between now and when your layout is build there are sugnificant changes to either NCE system or to DCC standards, the historical upgrade path for NCE has been to issue a new EPROM chip. For a minimal cost (IIRC the last one was $20) they send you a new EPROM, you open the black box, remove the old and install the new. No need to send the unit back to the factory. In contrast, Digitrax’s upgrade path has either been to issue a new system, with no upgrade path for the old system you have, or to come out with some other new piece of hardware, like a new throttle, for you to access new features. No option to send in the old for an upgrade to the new standards.
Something to consider. You don’t want the DCC system you buy today to be outdated when you finally get around to building your layout in a few years. Either will handle the criteria you listed.
Don’t buy anything now – wait until you have an operational layout and decoder equipped locomotives if you anticipate it being 5 years from now, because DCC technology is changing so rapidly that what you purchase today might be obsolete in 5 years, especially one of the “beginner” systems.
What’s even more scary is that if you purchase a cheap beginner system now the company that makes it might not be around in 5 years.
If you do decide to get your system now, go all the way and with a major supplier such as Digitrax, Lenz, North Coast Engineering or EasyDCC.
This is where I step in and say Digitrax Zephyr. Perfect for that basic loop to get you going, and it runs a DC loco on address 00 (not very well but it works - especially if you have no coreless can motors, which will melt rather rapidly if palced on DCC track with no decoder). As you add more benchwork and track for more operational possibilities you can add an extra throttle, and as the layotu continues to grow, an extra booster for more power. And finally when you’re ready for radio, you cn add that AND get your original tethered throttles upgraded to radio - for no price penalty (Digitrax upgrades throttles to radio for the same cost as the price difference between the tethered and radio versions). Finally, if you want to add detection and signalling, you alrady have the data bus installed - the same Loconet that connects the throttles also connects the block detection system and signal controls, both from Digitrax and numerous third parties. That last - NO ONE else has. And through it all, that original Zephyr you purchased can be located in a spot where the operator doesn’t have to move, liek the engine terminal, and continue to be a fully functional part of your system. No wasted components with Digitrax if you choose to start small and add as you go on.
As for buying the top of the line system right out, if I did that I’d have no money for wood, track, and roadbed to actually build my layout. I started with the Zephyr, and until my layout reaches the point where the Zephyr is too small, I will continue to use it as my only system. Eventually I will add the other bits as I need them to expand the power and number of operators.
–Randy
I recommend getting the full blown system with radio now. That’s what I did and I have just about finished wiring 2/3rds of the current layout. The advantage is that I have been adding and testing as I go with the final system. So I don’t wind up with a problem later when I get the final system. Also, I haven’t spent money or time doing a cab bus that I don’t need.
Enjoy
Paul
Rinker (Randy) had some good points. I ran a cheap E-Z Command for around 3 years and did enjoy it, but it lacked things I wanted. It was a little hard to run 2 engines on the same line and I wanted walk around capability.
Couple of thing we have in common Jim is we don’t know much and have big benches. Mine is 19 X 13 and is getting bigger. On of the problems that drove me a little nuts was when I did have a bad section I could not be close to see what was happing.
I bought a Zepher with a UP 5 faces plate and a utility throttle, cost was right around $255.00 this way I could have walk around capability. Before I installed mine Simon 1966 brought over his so I could give it a try. It’s 2.5 amp power supply ran 6 engines with no problem. What I did not like was the way it controlled 2 engines on the same main. Lets say engine 1 is at 40% throttle and you want to start engine 2, you change address from 1 to neutral, select engine 2, turn throttle to 0 and select 2 and off you go. Now, you want to regain control of engine 1, you exit engine 2, set the throttle to apx speed you had engine 1 and select and you are in control again. I must add it is easer than it sounds. But, it was no better than the E-Z command that I was giving up.
I went with a Digitrax Super Empire Builder because of its DT 400 throttle. You can control two engines at the same time because it has knobs for this. Let say engine 1 is at 40%, I select engine 2 and crank it up to 60% then I go back to engine 1 and it is still at 40%. You must read about what all it can do at there site, but it is amazing.
Now, the Zepher cost me $255.00 apx with the extra stuff. My SEB for short has 5 amps, DH 400 throttle, UP 5 faces plate and with it $40.00 power supply came to $300.00.
My goal is to run 8 to 10 sound engines at the same time and have it all controlled by compu
been reading thease (whats best) for a year now… first I liked the easy dcc.then I decided on the chief…then it hit me 'I dont even have any track down ’ got some bench work a lot of ideas no real plan sooo …I went for a deal on a zepher and after playing all day on some temp track its all I ll need for a long time …dcc is the e ticket ,just fooled a round with a f7 p2k w/sound set and am sold …got me ready to move forward …nothing like dcc …zepher is fine for now …J.w.
Jim,
CudaKen’s post is exactly what you to AVOID. Read his post carefully, sort of read between the lines.
First, he started with a Bachmann EZ-DCC system. This is as about a basic, beginner level DCC system as you can get. Did it work? Sure, has it lasated to meet his needs? No. Did he have numerous problems with it? Yes, just go back through his history of posts and look at the various problems he had with and the number of decoders he’s burned up. DCC system No. 1 down.
Next (based on recommendations from forum members) he bought a Digitrax Zephyr (not Zepher) system. This is the Digitrax starter system. Again, did it work? Not exactly. It didn’t fit his operating ‘style.’ DCC system No. 2 down.
Becuase CudaKen was already hooked into Digitrax he now (again based on forum recommendations) goes out and buys a Digitrax Super Empire Builder (SEB). The SEB is the next step up the Digitrax product line. He gets the fancy DT (not DH) 400 throttle and should be good to go. Except, CudaKen likes to mess around with CV settings and trying to program, re-program and fix decoders. One problem, the SEB doesn’t have CV read back capability. So, time to buy another piece of hardware that will allow him to read CVs and program sound decoders. More $$$ out of pocket.
Now it appears that CudaKen is saying that, if given the chance to do it again, he’d pick the Digitrax Super Chief system because it has CV read back capability.
SO, lets review. You could take the recommendation of some and buy a started system and be like CudaKen. You could be on your THIRD DCC system in the last 3-4 years, OR you could go out and buy a full, top line, top featured system now, have everything wired and installed from the beginning to meet it and be learning how t
Hi!
I’m in the process of rebuilding an 11x15 two level HO layout and converting to DCC at the same time. A year ago I would have said “no way” to the conversion. Now I am crazy about it - mainly to be able to run trains as opposed to figuring out which toggle controlls which block, etc., etc.
I went with a Digitrax Super Chief, with a second booster and two Digital Specialties PSx4 circuit breakers - which gives me 8 power districts with one 5 amp booster for 4. I chose Digitrax because of quality, availability, and the fact that they are used by so many. I almost chose NCE, and if I had, that would have been fine too! Money wise, I’ve spent $1k so far, and will spend another $1k on decoders over the next few years.
Soooo, before you buy, I suggest you ask yourself a couple of questions…
First, is model railroading a passion of yours, or a casual hobby? In other words, are you in it for the long run or is it just something to do for now? If its truly a passion, I would get a bigger system to start with - one that you can expand upon.
Second, is money a factor? If so, go with a basic starter system - although try to get one that you can incorporate into an expanded one if it grows on you.
One last comment… If you can, I would go with the bigger system no matter what. Take good care of it and the boxes/manuals, and if you decide you are not going to stay with it, you can get a reasonably good price for it on Ebay.
FWIW,
Mobilman44
Silver Pilot,
Not quite upto date on Digitrax upgrading.
I think since the DCS100/200 command station came out there has been one upgrade that required a small fee and and a return to upgrade at the factory. This was several years ago. Since then, there has been no need for an upgrade.
The only upgrades available for the DT400 throttle are to add wireless and to upgrade them to the new DT402 standard. AFAIK all manufacturers require throttles to be returned to the factory for wireless upgrades. In the case of Digitrax the cost to do this is the difference between having purchased the wireless in the first place, very reasonable I think.
As for the DT402 throttles, the upgrade is via software download from the web. You don’t even have to crack the case to insert a chip and for what it was worth the upgrade fix they just put out was free.
For anyone buying a DCC system today, if upgrades are a high priority issue, then I would submit that Digitrax offers the best current solution. Personally, I think this is a way over played feature.
The above statement was almost true up to one and a half months ago. Now it doesn’t hold the water. Digitrax command stations did not need any upgrade since 1999. A tribute to how well they are engineered. In addition the DT402 series of throttle are now upgradeable via software download. As Simon pointed out no need to crack open any case to change a chip.
Reading between the lines is a dangerous buisness.
The reason that Cuda moved on from the EZ command was because it started to Eat Decoders. If you go back and read his posts over the past 2 years, you will see. If this wasent happening, then I doubt he would have upgraded.
With the Zephyr, if he had purchased a DT400 and plugged it in, it would operate just like the system he has now.
Hooked? Not really. No one here ever forced anyone to purchase a system. He made his own choice.
Let me be clear here, there is absolutely no need to read back CVs when you have a computer interface with JMRI. The locomotive’s CVs are kept in the computer, and can be chaged as such. In the past 10 years I have yet to read back ONE CV and I am a profes
Let’s say you have a Zephyr with a DT400 that you purchased 5 years ago, can you access all possible 28 functions? Simple question - simple answer - Yes or No? Nevermind the argument about whether you need to or may even want to, the question is can you?
Sorry I forgot to add another $50-80 to the price of Super Chief so that sound decoders can be programmed.
It is an admitted limitation of the SEB that you can not read back CVs. Whether you (David) like to read them back or not without using DecoderPro and computer connection is irrelevant to this discussion. It is a capability that most other systems have including the Zephyr and SC. There is still a segment, perhaps large segment, of the model railroading population that want to be able to read back CVs without having to go fire up the computer and start DecoderPro. A situation such as a module layout setup for a weekend and the need to program/troubleshoot a decoder would be one example.
Upgrade chip? You make the point. To ‘upgrade’ the system requires the purchase of new throttles such as a DT400 (from a DT300) to access new capabilities.
CudaKen as in past post lamented the inability of the SEB to read back CVs and the difficulties he has had getting the PR3 to work properly with his locomotives.
Just to set the record straight Silver Pilot.
1 E-Z Command cost me $30.00 with shipping.
2 With the Zephyr never being out of the box, LHS gave full trade toward the SEB.
3 SEB with the $40.00 transformer total cost was $300.00
4 Reason I went with the SEB and not the chief? I bought a PR-3 at the same time. PR 3 running Decoder Pro is much better at reading all the CV’s than hunting through hundreds of them and setting them 1 at a time.
5 Total spent on DCC System with the E-Z, extra UP 5, phone cord, PR-3, PS 14 and the SEB is $397.00 with tax.
By your standards I wasted a whole $30.00, if you can call it a waste with it still being used on the work bench?
But you where making the same point I was, buy what you want up front. Main reason I did not like the Zephyr was I wanted the DT 400 and it by it self would run another $135.00.
Wasted a whole $30.00 Ken
Ummm… that would be me. Wayyyy too much work.
I have exactly that set up and the simple answer is yes coming this September. Digitrax will upgrade my DT400 for $25.00. Don’t forget that with a PHPro purchased 5 years ago you can’t access all 29 functions unless you pay and install an upgraded chip. Therefore both system are in the same boat.
At the club we can program any sound decoders without problem with a Super Chief system. Only some first generation QSI sound decoders may be a problem to read CVs. For these I agree a booster or a resistance across the programming track is required.
This is correct but for one individual having difficulties with the PR3, many others replied, me included, having no problem whatsoever reading and programming sound decoders. My own experience with a PR3 is with QSI, Soundtrax, Blue Line and Paragon2 decoders.
hardcoalcase…get a zephyr great place to start and if the time comes when you need more umph , upgrade … Iv been reading these pages a long time …if medium size layout not built yet ,4 locco running,no prev dcc ex. …its a great place to start got mine 112.00 american little used on e-??? and I am happy as a clam… hey the warrantys are only a year …heck your on a two to five year plan if I read rite ,tech stuff changes fast who knows whats coming…save some cash get a zephyr and have some fun while your building…J.W.
Silver Pilot, as you can plainly see, Ken can absolutely speak for himself.
Again you are speaking for others… I for one am showing you the CV readback feature is not needed anymore. JMRI is a fantastic way of performing all of your programming tasks.
Funny you mention…
Apparently you have no idea that I belong to such a group, and I must say that NO ONE uses the Zephyr we have available for programming, but they instead use my LAPTOP connected to my DB150 for programming. Next weekend my group (Calgary Freemo) is renting a Hockey Arena to set up a Freemo layout. There is a programming table and people will use it all the time.
Also, who cares about functions above F12? Why would you need them at all? As far as I can tell, unless you are running an MRC sound decoder (yech) you have no need. And yes, with a computer connection the Zephyr can access all Functions.
David B
Over ten years ago I started with a Digitrax Super Chief (Radio) with a DT100R throttle. I had a plywood pacific in my basement I knew that my basement layout was going to need more AMPS, and needed a booster. It was less expensive to get a Digitrax Empire Builder with a DB150 and a DT100 throttle. I use the DB150 for a booster and sent the DT100 to Digitrax for upgrade to radio. I also purchased an MS100 to program decoders. Since that date I have picked up two DT300R throttles and a DT400R. All are still in full use on the layout and work great.
After making too many trips to the canyon (basement floor) I had to send my DT400R to Digitrax for repair. At the same time I sent my DCS100 to Digitrax to have the command station upgraded from 8 to 12 functions. (Cost was $50 inclding return postage.) I’m not sure why I needed the upgrade as I never used eight functions, but I am moving to sound an may need them at some point.
I will be upgrading to Digitrax duplex radio this fall by purchasing a UR-92 and new UT4D throttles.
Last year I picked up another DB150 on ebay and a power supply. My job takes me away from home and I use the extra DB150 as an away command station. (Small apartment layout.) While my MS100 is still working great at home with Decoder Pro; I have purchased a PR3 to use with the DB150 and my laptop computer on the road. While I can’t do much on the layout, I am using the road time to upgrade my fleet of Athearn BB SD40-2 to sound and mobile decoders. With a Digitrax PR3, reading back CVs with the DB150 is not an issue. I gave up punching CVs on a throttle years ago and use Decoder Pro exclusively for programing. Decoder Pro also allows me to use my computer as multiple throttles to run the layout. With a Digitrax PR3 I get programing and a throttle through my computer.
I have a lot of fr