A Letter to the "New" Lionel

Classic Toy Trains Forum
1

Lionel LLC

Gerald Calabrese, CEO

Dear Mr. Calabrese,

Please do explore the possibility of forming an alliance with the Disney Corporation to establish a train-based theme park. An entertaining venue, such as this, could exhibit expansive, interactive O gauge layouts showcasing the historical legacy of railroading, both real and toy, from America’s nineteenth and twentieth centuries to today, together with operational trains, varying from just large enough to carry people (very appealing to children) to 1:1 scale. Such a park might be named, for example, " Lionel’s World of Trains," Walt Disney’s Lionel Land," or “Disney’s Lionel Trains Unlimited,”

Creatively designed, train derived amusement rides, offering the kind of exhilaration that roller coasters, haunted houses, etc. provide, together with such live entertainment activities as Old-West train robbers, Indian attacks, music and more, should provide the type of family fun experience that attracts people and garners return visits.

Railcar-dining restaurants, similar to what was enjoyed during the Golden Age of passenger rail travel, would be a treat, and provision for a variety of more economical dining, could be met.

Gift shops bearing hosts of items, from model train sets to railroad related paraphernalia, books, and DVD’s would add to the attractions color and bottom line.

As for the theme park’s location-with the imminent closure of Bay Meadows Racetrack, in San Mateo, California (a property owned by a developer) a theme park would be of more benefit to this quite populated region than another strip mall or office complexes (of which too many exist already). I should think that with the surrounding major cities of San Francisco, San Jose, and Oakland, plus the entire Bay Area’s resident and visitor population, it would be a viable and profitable venture. Year-round, mild weather is another important advantage for this site.

Sincerely,

2

Donna,

For a bit a trivia, are you aware Lionel custom built a futuristic G scale train for Euro Disney back in the early 90’s?

A postwar Lionel Superchief roller coaster would be an awesome ride.

3

John, I wasn’t aware of that, and that connection you point out, between these two companies, could only help drive this train of thought.

The Disney organization, as you are probably aware, is very train-friendly–going back to Uncle Walt’s love of trains–and the company owns and displays quite a locomotive collection of its own.

If this idea I’ve posed ever comes to pass, well…the party is on me–at the funpark, of course. [:D]

[#ditto] on that Super Chief coaster [(-D]

4

What we need are Train Theaters like descibed in Model Railroader several years ago.

What would be great are train theaters. A train theater would be a highly detailed scene in the center with hidden staging areas on the sides. The lighting would be carefully controlled using focused LEDs to create a sunrise to sunset effect. Command Control would be used to choreograph the movement of trains to surprise and delight the viewers. Command Control would be used to switch cars and locomotives. While the cars and locomotives are switched specific Crew and Tower conversations would be heard. Every locomotive would have Sounds. It would be true theater.

Having layouts in a series of rooms that groups could rent for an hour at a time. Each Command Controlled locomotive would have its own Controller.

That is more in line with Lionel’s products than a theme park.

Andrew

5

Andrew, with all due respect–it is not what “we” need, but what “you” want. And what is “more in line” with Lionel’s products is…their business, and not yours or mine to advise them on how to apply their business model. My letter was a request-to-consider, not an advisory.

Your suggestion, imo, wouldn’t draw flies. [:)]

6

Donna,

Did you even look at the entire post?

Layouts in a series of rooms that groups could rent for an hour at a time.

Each Command Controlled locomotive on the layout would have its own Controller.

That would let people use Lionel’s actual products so they are more likely to purchase them.

If they can never touch the real product, then what is the point. Perhaps Lionel should stop marketing and selling Command Control locomotives.

The LEGACY product is pinnacle of what they are selling. If they do not have a showcase, then they will be limiting their sales.

They are planning to use popular culture to increase their sales, not ruin the company on ridiculous diversions.

Andrew

Andrew

7

To stick to the railroad theme all the food served would need to be made with CARGILL Corn Syrup or prepared in CARGILL Vegetable Oil. Lionel has sold many freight cars with the Cargill name.

Andrew Falconer

My real name! Not a fake.

8

Remember Big Moe? The traveling Lionel train display that was eventually sold to MTH? It was sort of a theater with dioramas. You could push buttons to operate the accessories. There was no admission however. I don’t know what became of it.

9

Hi John,

Big Moe wasn’t sold to MTH. It is still privately owned. The owner did change sponsors from Lionel to MTH, but he still owned it. He has since passed away and his widow is trying to sell it.

10

OK, thanks for setting me straight.

11

Hi Donna,

Not to sound like I’m pickin’ on You, but to the best of my knowledge the ORHF (Oregon Rail Heritage Foundation) has found a new home for their Locomotives, here in Portland, still a lot involved, especially sweat equity, before it is ready though. Also, seeing that the 4449 is actually OWNED by the City of Portland, I don’t think that You are likely to see the 4449 moving to California any time soon.

Doug

12

Spankybird is right. Big Mo was owned by a gent named Harry Turner. We ran features on Big Mo in 1988 In its Lionel colors) and 1999 (in its MTH colors). Lionel dropped its sponsorship, and Harry Turned to MTH, who sponsored the rig for several years.

MTH eventually dropped its sponsorship. The last time I spoke to Turner (he died a year or so back) he was trying to revamp the layout as a generic three-rail touring layout to sell.

I recall the layout was for sale by his estate, but I’m unaware of its fate.

13

With all due respect to all, I think that with the current changes at Lionel, they will do what is profitable for them. Although any one who has ever been in business knows what is profitable for the immediate might not work as well for the long-term.

It has been pretty obvious that while maintaining their current customer base, Lionel wants to address a new customer base. While Disney tie-in products can help with this, licensiing could be the big obstacle here. To make a loose generalisim here, Lionel needs Disney more than Disney needs Lionel. I’m sure the Disney licensing doesn’t come easily or cheaply. Disney makes money off their product licensing, as Lionel makes money off their own licensing, be in product/logo promotions on non-train products or for use of Railsounds and TMCC.

I think Lionel has bigger fish to fry in the immediate future. They are obviously trying to expand their visability into new retail venues they haven’t been in. But I think most would agree, they need to maintain their established retail dealer network (however they see fit to accomplish this) for follow-up sales. It’s of litle immediate benefit to sell train sets in big box retailers, without the customer being able to find other related products to get going, that big box retailers currently do not carry. Given the numbers of small local retailers that are going under, this does have ramifications for market exposure. People won’t buy what they don’t see, or don’t know exists.

I also think Lionel will be seeking ways to maximize their visability without making large financial investments. I think we could all agree that something like the Lionel Kid’s Club would be a good idea. Yet Lionel dropped their own Kid’s Club for either lack of interest or lack of suitable profits.

Many of us have said Lionel could do more with their website, especially for the beginners. And many have spoken - I know I have - that Lionel might do well to have a separate catalog that is aimed

14

Unfortunately, from whjat I can see, local hobby shops are dropping from sight on a regular basis and not being replaced. Yes, there are a few big boys out there who benefit from this phenomenon, but I think we are seeing a realignment of the retail side of model railroading. Just how this will play out over time is anyone’s guess.

I believe that Lionel needs to get its products out into the general retail environment even more – discount stores, department stores at Christmas, etc. to expand its cusotomer base.

As for advertising, I long ago suggested to Lionel (talked to their marketing director at the time) that they advertise inside buses in larger cities. They have a captive audience on the bus during the commute, etc., and having a Lionel sign looking down on them from around the ceiling would be a great way to reintroduce people to Lionel Trains. Give them an “800” number where they can locate dealers in their area. Especially during November and December – let people kn0w that Lionel is still in business because a lot of them DON’T know it to this day.

15

A lot of great food for thought, guys.

Brianel…liked your observation about differentiating and targeting the market segments so interested prospects don’t get scared off by price points before they start. The uninformed public impression may be that that the toy train hobby is too expensive to enter with some semblance of quality and permanence while we know that is not necessarily so.

As Lionel management, I’d rather have that new prospect running a starter set with children and grandchildren, even if it’s only at Christmas until the year 2050, and have that prospect go no further. Better to entice the prospect to take that first taste. The rest will take care of itself.

Jack

16

For initial financial investment the only way for this to work for Lionel to be a minor partner.

The financial investment percentages could be like this:

35%-Disney

20%-Union Pacific

20%-BNSF

10%-ADM

10%-Cargill

5%-Lionel

I doubt that Lionel could carry the bulk of the financial burden. You might want to shop it around to large corporations into rail transportation and food products.

Andrew

17

I thought this discussion was supposed to be about a Lionel theme park in Disneyland. Where is Donna to keep this thread on track?

18

[2c] about location. Disneyland is on the West Coast. Disney World is in the Southeast. Lionel is in Michigan. Why not here in the Northeast? [:)]

19

With significant interest generated at such public venues as the train layout at Chicago’s Museum of Science and Industry where folks are just watching trains run, the idea has a lot of merit. So much interest that there has been a huge landscaped operating train layout at the museum for around 70 years. If you moved that “watching public” to an “interactive public” participating in the action, the market possibilities would be interesting. The exposure could ignite an interest in the toy train hobby never seen before.

Jack

20

The problem with a NE location, traindaddy, is one of inclement, winter weather, which should explain the reasoning for the temperate, year-round sites picked by Disney, for the theme parks. I’ve been to your neck of the woods many times–the Bronx Zoo is a favorite of mine, and its substantial, climate controlled indoor exhibits are a far cry from the year-round, out-in-the-open-air exhibits found here. Also, Bay Meadow’s land availability is imminent, as its final meet is currently underway–and “Lord knows, we don’t need another shopping center!”

Even a theme park where Lionel just leases a section, would be keen with me–just get the largely untapped (to the general public) entertainment value of toy and real trains before the public, and the hobby would greatly grow. The toy train companies, unfortunately, don’t even advertise on TV–a shame, really. Basically, they have been complacent, preaching to the choir, and satisfied with the status quo (at least, up until the more proactive policy statement that Lionel just issued).

By the way…“they” said Disney was nuts, way back when–imagine, a cartoonist having the audacity to think he could make a go of a huge, theme park; yep, he’ll loose his shirt!