Over the years, I have heard a good many comments from fellow 027 operators. I always encourage them to post the comments on the forums, be it here or on the other big forum. Often there is mention of feeling uncomfortable talking about 027 trains when the emphasis of the last decade train production (until very recently) has been otherwise.
This is a letter I received and tried unsuccessfully to reply to. So I post it here. It’s a nice letter and I do believe reflects the feelings of many operators who otherwise don’t actively post on these forums…
Fellow 027 railroader, Hello - I read with great interest your commentary of the current state of affairs with O gauge railroading. I started out with 027 back in 1986 as a introduction for my 4 year old son and over the years developed a nice layout about 10 x 10 in size. I will never tear this down for the sake of enlarging the radius, as both sons and myself put alot of our “bonding” into this small but delightful layout.
Your comments relative to the forgotten O27 followers by the manufacturers are precise and appreciated. I still think we are the silent majority. I will never buy an engine or rolling stock that does not run on the home layout, even though I belong to a O gauger model railroad club that has a massive radius, Atlas based track modular layout. Needless to say, not much there for me anymore in the catalogs. My main interest now falls in the period we started - the Richard Keughn era, and the pieces I could not afford then is what I am pursuing.
Now to the point of this e-mail. I noticed you had great remarks about the K-Line S2 switchers. I have never had a K-Line switcher, and always hesitated, though the S2 and MP15 were kinda neat. The new K-Line by Lionel catalog shows a Milw Rd S2, the exact switcher that traveled up and down a line close to my house I grew up in, and I remember running to the track to greet the 5 man (feather bedded) crew in my early youth. I know
As Brian knows, I’m with him when it comes to the smaller O27-size motive power and rolling stock. The vast majority of my O gauge collection fits this category: multiple units of the Lionel Dockside; more than a dozen K-Line Plymouths and several Porters; a couple of the LTI ALCOs; well over a dozen RMT BEEPs and several BUDDYs; and even a couple of K-Line S-2s and MP-15s remaining (I once had more than 80 S-2s, and at one time, some years ago, wrote an article about them for CTT). And, of course, I have a good number of Lionel’s smaller steamers and diesels from earlier years, as well. I also have the RMT BEEF and PEEP passenger cars on order, and was a bit dismayed to learn yesterday that delivery of those items will be delayed until summer (which probably means fall).
And I’ll most definitely be buying several of the new K-Lion Boxcabs that are in the recent catalog–fitting associates for the original Lionel postwar 520 boxcabs that I have had for years.
Anyhow, I think it’s safe to say that I am rather firmly attached to the smaller O gauge offerings, and am delighted that Lionel is continuing the series of MP-15s, S-2s, Plymouths, and Porters once made by K-Line, as well as its own Dockside and 0-4-0 switchers, which are great little locomotives.
I don’t begrudge those who prefer scale-size equipment and who choose to count rivets. To each his own, but those are items that, in three-rail O gauge at least, don’t interest me all that much. They are costly, require a good amount of space, and are also a bit too “delicate” for my tastes in O gauge. If I wanted all that scale fidelity, and was willing and able to pay the price, I would go over to two-rail O scale and be done with it (assuming, again, that I had the space, which I definitely do not).
An item I’m looking for now is the more recent Lionel release of the #41 Army switcher, since the layout I’m currently working on will have a U.S. Ar
I also find it amusing that when this catalog came out, many of the other forum members were crying, “where is the scale stuff?”. To me the message was clear
When I received this catalog, I immediately smiled and said, “Jerry you know what you’re doing”. He’s obviously taking steps to develop the funnel idea with affordable priced 027/031 stuff that will be the logical and most economical next step for the entry level operator. It’s also appealing to myself, who operates mostly postwar, in that it’s affordable, less electronic laden and hopefully more trouble-free (this is a big one for me).
Jerry, states right in the inside of the front page cover that some K-Line scale pieces will be integrated into the Lionel line.
I think this stuff will sell very well, and help so many newbies and traditionalists in the hobby.
Thanks for sharing the letter. I think your friend is correct. There are probably many people who never post on forums that run the less expensive, more toy-like O-27 trains. That’s where my interest has been since shifting from 4 decades of modeling scale trains in HO. Rather than rehash all the reasons, suffice it to say I’m having fun with the simplicity, durability, nostalgia and charm of O-27. I like seeing the scale stuff, sure, but I do not have the room or budget for it. More power to those that do.
Cudos to Lionel for re-discovering this important niche (dare I say, “majority?”) of the hobby. I think they are smart to create a separate catalog for the K-Line items that appeal to modelers like me and many others. Even if RailKing does not shift back toward O-27, we have two good manufacturers in RMT and Lionel/K-Line. And let’s not forget Atlas with the revitalized Industrial Rails line.
For people who are moving to smaller homes, apartments, or condos, they often want a layout but don’t realize the potential of the O27 equipment in their smaller spaces. And if you have a large basement and space for a large layout with generous curves, there are times when it is inaccessible to handicapped, elderly, or infirm guests, or perhaps even yourself. When I had a flare-up of an old hip injury a few years ago, I couldn’t walk down the steps to my basement layout for several weeks, and if it weren’t for having some O27 stuff to run on my main level, I would have been without the trains and the enjoyment they provide. The O27 curve is the most wonderful thing about the 3-rail trains! You can do so much more with the tighter curve. A beautiful smaller layout with O27 equipment could be done on someone’s main living level, perhaps in the spare room. And for parents who are trying to build a layout for their children, they often can’t wait until they have the ideal spacious home and large budget. Time has a way from slipping away, so embrace the O27 equipment! Even if you have the luxury of abundant accessible space, the O27 stuff is wonderful!
Thanks everyone for the nice points. Joe, your last comment is an observation I have made before. In these days of economic uncertainty, where folks do not have the same single job forever (ah Chief Eagles, your cry for US jobs is heard by some of us), smaller, portable layouts can be a real plus. My current layout is being built again on a shoestring budget utilizing everything possible from the older layout with the new one utilizing blue styrofoam insulation board for the surface. It’s lightweight and easily worked with, and I have figured out ways to deal with things like adhering the 027 tubular track.
Again, nothing against the high/scale end, but from my many years doing shows and from all the people I have talked with over the years, I know the 027 operators are in the clear majority, though we don’t spend the big dollars either. And I know from talking to people inside both K-Line and Lionel, that the real profits are made from these lower end items… they’re the onces that make the money because they’re the ones the ones that don’t have the excessive million dollar plus (sometimes multi-million dollar) tooling costs. And from my own personal experience, command control users account for less that 10% (birds of a feather flock together [:D]).
I know nationally that number is higher, but it’s still not a big number at CTT’s estimate of 35%, even though the current products would lead one to believe that everyone now uses digital control… it’s just not the case. But I think if Lionel were to start issuing more and more tradtionally run locos, it would kind of be tantamount to admitting failure, since they developed TMCC. And since the MTH customers are a loyal group of DCS users (hardly any MTH locos come without their electronics), I think there would also be a bit of “Lionel isn’t keeping up with the Joneses.”
By the way, that’s not a slam against digital control users. I know there are many tr
Good points by Dr. John and Trigtrax: We definitely don’t want to overlook the Industrial Rails line from Atlas and Williams’ very fine line of trains when we talk about O27 trains. Lionel, K-Line, Williams, RMT, and Atlas all offer items that are great for those who either prefer smaller size O gauge; who need to stick with smaller sizes simply because that’s what their space or hobby budget dictates; or who, because they have smaller layouts, do not really need command control or some of the other sophisticated features that are packed into the more complex high-end trains.
We may be something of a “silent majority” in some ways, but my guess is that this hobby would rather quickly become a whole lot smaller if this silent majority was not speaking with its dollars–the one voice that every manufacturer understands. It’s one area where, in my opinion, MTH has taken a course (pretty much neglecting traditional-size O27) that they may come to regret further down the road.
Could someone explain the difference between a O27 operator, and a semi-scale operator? I run semi-scale engines and passenger cars, but my FasTrack loops are O36 and O48. One of my Christmas layouts is O31. I would personally like it if Lionel had a few pages of Lionmaster engines, instead of 1 or 2 offerings. Even that 1 HAS to be a huge steamer, like the cab-forward. I happen to like the smaller steam, like K4’s and Atlantics. The previous T1 duplex would have been nice, but it had many problems (jerky running, Odyssey magnets flying apart, smoke unit wired backwards). My other “problem” is that I’ve grown fond of TMCC, so my Lionel postwar stuff is on the shelf when not running at Christmas.
On the bright side, I have little temptation to spend big bucks on new offerings. I may, however, get the new Lionel semi-scale PRR Mikado with TMCC. At less that $350., I predict this will be a HOT seller. Joe
Do you think the new S2’s shell size is the same as the old ones? I have a repainted NH S2 that has a bad motor and stripped gears from an unexplained power surge to the rails that my Command remote wouldn’t stop. I had to reprogram it to fix the power surge but the S2 wheels were spinning madly and that’s where the damage came, not to mention it’s old age. Anyway, I’d like to get a new S2 and hope I can just switch shells. That should work, right? I hope!
I think if you count thet number of conventional Lionel locos in this catalog, it’s probably greater than at any time in the last six or seven years. Five steam locomotive types in multiple roads and another ten diesels in multiple roads in most cases. That’s more than Williams or RMT has in each of their catalogs and they don’t make anything else year to year, thus their tooling costs are negligible, as are their development costs. And if you add in K-Line, Lionel and K-Line make more conventional mode locomotives today than everyone else taken together, to use a well worn phrase. Not downplaying the role Williams and RMT play, just trying to provide a perspective.
So obviously someone at Lionel is in agreement with Brian’s argument that there is room at the more modestly sized and prized end of the market. Some of these locos are as inexpensive as $75, meaning that a locomotive at street price isn’t a whole lot more expensive than a video game cartridge or two hard cover books at Borders.
Heck, even I, a TMCC only guy for most of the last 10 years had a conventional Williams New Haven F unit running around my Christmas tree, and just bought a conventional Lionel 269E repro set. Not bargains, but conventional :).
I will continue to buy only items that can run on 031 or smaller and if I choose to run them on a larger radius its only because I need to get around existing 027 and 031 track sections.
Yeah Trainbrain that shouldn’t be any problem. I can’t see Lionel making any significant modifications to the K-Line products, until they gain actual ownership of the tools and dies. Right now it’s just a marketing agreement with Lionel having exclusive rights to market the items and help Sanda Kan recoup some of the massive debt built up from the original K-Line.
But I don’t understand how you stripped the gears? Did you have a command board in your S-2? I mean, I’ve been running these guys for years and many of mine are older… remember K-Line ceased production of the S-2 in 1995, so they’re all 12 years old now. I’ve never had one strip the gears. If you want, I can check to see if any K-Line vendors I know of still have the gear sets for these locos. The DC motor is a Mabuchi and the same one from Lionel will work in these K-Line locos, but the gears are different between these K-Line S-2’s and a similar Lionel loco.
Maybe Lionel will make parts avaiable too? Right now they have the MDK stock of K-Line parts which I would imagine includes far more parts for older K-Line items than the later recent items. Time will tell. there was some hearsay that Lionel might sell all remaining K-Line parts to a few select vendors, but as to my knowledge, nothing like that has happened.
As a Marx fan I’m glad to see the S-2 in production again, because I believe it’s based on old Marx tooling. It’s always nice to see someone making Marx could-have-beens.
My 8x8 layout could marginally accomodate larger stuff, but O27 lets me run longer trains, and I can fit more 1:64 scale stuff in the space than I could 1:48 so it makes the available space look larger. To non-train folks, 8x8 seems absolutely huge, though by train standards my layout meets most definitions of “small.”
One thing you can do when something doesn’t like O27 curves is to ease into them. Rather than going around a corner of the table with a straight, two O27 curves, and another straight, use an O27-profile O72 or O54 curve, followed by an O27 curve, and another O54/O72. Often an engine that can’t take 90 degrees of O27 can handle 45 degrees of it, especially if it’s had that broader curve to transition. And the combination with the wider curves takes up about the same amount of space as the traditional straight-curve-curve-straight sequence would.
I run the O-27 equipment whenever I can. Most of the rolling stock and engines are that size. I just wish the old Scout cars were still made. They really look good with the smaller engines. Maybe they will sell them under the K-Line brand. It is interesting how little space can be used to have a nice O-27 layout. I had an oval with a small siding on a board smaller than 3’ by 4’. Now that is portable railroading!
Thanks for your time. I don’t have a board in it but 1 night I had a surge that spun the motors crazy. The 3 white plastic gears between the wheels in 1 motor are loosy now and the middle one looks stripped a bit plus its wiggling back & forth in it’s place, not connecting to the other 2 gears. I think the surge spun it crazy! The 2 mtrs work but the 1 with the bad gears works too hard because of the gears. For all the time & effort I think I’ll just wait for a good deal on the new S2’s and switch shells. I had a beautiful paint job done for NH.
Thanks again, Pix not too good but you get the idea!
Brian - Thanks for your reply to my e-mail. I was wondering if you had received it. I very much appreciate all the comments relative to the 027 marketplace. I have a great amount of friends, through our O gauger club, that will only consider scale when purchasing and while this is fine, there are equally a number of friends that are not so particular. The price tags of scale with all the upgrading in electronics, etc. just does not compel me to acquire. I have only two TMCC locomotives and that’s as far as I am going with it. I enjoy just letting my older engines run - so much for keeping my passion for electric trains - simple! As for the manufacturer’s viewpoint of “Toy Train” looks, well I know I will be stepping on some folks out there - but they are ALL toy trains, not real… they may represent the real thing, and fulfill some peoples ideas of collectables - but they are toys, very expensive toys for our young at heart. 027 can easily be modeled giving the identical representation of scale on a layout, with realism. Again, Brian, thanks for the posting and the feedback.
Well, for what it’s worth, I just placed an order for yet another O27 item (Lionel) from Grzyboski’s. Needed to add to my Army-related inventory. [:)]
I haven’t ordered from Grzyboski’s before, but they apparently have what I want at a price I can afford. And I’ve read good things about them on the various forums. Figured I might as well give them a try!
Not downplaying the role Williams and RMT play, just trying to provide a perspective.