I got into O gauge model trains a little more than a year ago. I am now in the midst of building my first layout. As I have continue to immerse myself into this hobby, I have been really impressed with the HO layouts I see on the web, in Model Railroader and other publications. The attention to detail, scenery and realistic operations are especially impressive to me. This has caused me to think about transitioning into HO.
This past Saturday, I attended a local train show. The show had layouts in everything from G to Z. Once again the HO layouts, even in modular format were very impressive. However, while the G gauge and O gauge layouts had trains that kept running and running…and running, the HO layouts were plagued by one operational problem after another. I recognize that this may be due to the modular nature of a temporary setup, but this is where my question comes in: are HO layouts less “reliable” than O gauge layouts? While I really like the detailed scenery, I am an operator at heart and I would have been pulling my hair out if I had to deal with the myriad derailments, power interruptions, random uncoupling, etc. that were happening on the HO layouts.
My O gauge and G gauge layouts are pretty bulletproof. I can turn the power on and the trains run without a problem. Am I taking the reliability of these gauges for granted? Based on what I saw last Saturday, I am coming to the conclusion that I should stick with high rail O gauge and spare myself the headaches of dealing with those “little” trains.
John, I know that show you went to In all fairness, it is a challenge to do anything at a show - especially for some of those non-module layouts…
From my perspective as a former N scaler, I know, even in 1:160, it was / is very possible to create a bullet-proof layout - that could support a significant operations session. As much as I found it personally challenging to do so - in only 3 ft by 5 ft too - I have been fortunate to visit and operate layouts that were breathtaking. Visually vibrant - where trains were overwhelmed by scenery - and operationally solid as a rock - complete then with everything but sound…
That said, I was running four trolleys and a Berk pulling a three car train all at once tonight - a cacaphony of sound, lights, smoke and movement - - - nothing beats it in my opinion - that’s why I left N for O.
I was in HO years ago & I think it depends how maticulous the hobbyist is to achieve good performance. I think they run better at home than at a show, if the person spends enough time on his trackwork . I went the handlaid route in HO then with a Kaydee spiker & even fabricated my own switches . My problem was I was always looking at the Lionel stuff & having that as a kid, I finally ventured back to it when my son came along, glad I did !! Though I admire the work the 2 railers do, either HO or O or S !!
That’s funny – we HO guys say the same stuff about N and Z – it looks great but they seem to have running problems from time to time.
There is plenty of HO that operates flawlessly. But the modelers tend to be strict and self disciplined guys who do not run equipment that has problems and do not tolerate problem tracks or electrical situations until they are taken care of. The more casual the modelers, the more likely the problems. Some of us get so used to them we hardly notice until they are pointed out to us. In point of fact there have been some beautiful HO layouts including some featured in Model Railroader or Railroad Model Craftsman that do not operate terribly well (and of course some that are both gorgeous to look at and perfect in operation).
HO is prone to having problems with dirty track because of its lack of mass and inertia. But I think the real problem is that some equipment was/is designed with rather inadequate amounts of electrical pickup. The best HO is much better now in that regard and it is much easier now to have great running HO than it used to be.
Also remember as the “most popular” scale perhaps HO has more adherents who are overly casual about track and wheel standards, or who take such things for granted. You are not necessarily seeing “the best” at a train show in other words.
I cannot advise you of course but I would not switch just because of pretty pictures in a magazine.
I was an HO modeler for over 30 years before returning to O. HO is a wonderful scale in which to model and today there are an astounding number of highly detailed engines and rolling stock available at reasonable prices. DCC and sound are common too.
I left HO for several reasons. I like the size and weight of O. Track maintenance and cleaning are less critical with O gauge than HO. As I get older, my eyes appreciate the larger scales more and more. Plus, O has nostalgic meaning for me as I got my start with Marx and Lionel almost 50 years ago.
There is no “right” or “wrong” choice in scales. It ultimately comes down to your personal preferences and willingness to live with the pros and cons of a particular scale. Perhaps you could try your hand with a small HO switching layout to give it a try. Good running engines can be had for minimal cost and it would allow you the opportunity to try your hand at HO without a great outlay in time or money.
I get inticed by the smaller scales on occasion. A few years ago I had a scrap of plywood 1’ x 6’. I built a little switching layout in HO. It was fun to operate and being really small it was like a puzzle trying to move the cars around and dropping them off. The Kadee couplers and magnets work really well. Built some building kits and yard structures, etc.
I say go with your interests and explore other scales. By keeping your interests varied you learn all kinds of things. I really enjoyed the building kits, and weathering them. The skills and techniques you learn can transfer into other scales as well.
The HO engines that are being made now operate really well. Super slow speeds and reliable operation. My problem is working on the small stuff, cant see them like I used to.
But I probably get the most fun from my O gauge stuff. The size and heft make it seem like you are really running something powerful.
Edit- Dr John hit on the nostalga factor. Great point. Its really cool running the older trains, postwar and prewar. Alot of history there.
I was in HO for five years, N scale for over twenty, dabbled in S and G for a couple of years, and I can say with all my exposure to the different scales, nothing compares to O. The size, the weight, the variety (3 rail, hi-rail, 2 rail), are incredible. If you are a toy train guy you are going to struggle in HO, but if you are into prototypical operation HO may be a good fit for you. I would strongly advise that you visit more layouts and attend open houses from the clubs in your area. Today’s HO and N are vastly superior to what they were in sixties through the eighties. Try running an N scale locomotive from the seventies; it’s not pretty, but the N scale loco today is smooth running as can be. Still, it’s a small scale and lacks the presence of the big boys. My only regret in this hobby is that I did not start in O and stay with O. Oh well–better late than never.
A few thoughts on the topic of HO reliability: I have a friend who is building his first layout of any kind. It’s in HO and is the smoothest running thing I have seen in a long while. It’ better than what I had while I was in the smaller gauge. He has made his roadbed smooth and level. All the rail joints are tight and straight. Turnouts are all level. Each car and loco has kadee couplers installed and adjusted for height. He runs 30 - 40 car trains as smooth as silk. It’s just a matter of the small things, most of which are very hard to control on a modular layout that is reloacted frequently. If you are carefull and work accurately you should have no problems in HO. By the way, I moved to 3 rail as my eyes don’t work well enough for anything smaller.
I like the idea of doing a small switching layout that can be stored out of the way when not in use. I may give that a try. I am with most of you, nostalgia also is a big draw to me as I got into this hobby based on my memories of having a Lionel set when I was a kid.
In addition, everyone has to know their own limitations. I like running trains. I don’t have the patience or ability to meticulously lay down HO track on a full layout. As a result, I may set myself up for a great deal of frustration.
I started in HO moved to O and then to S. For me HO was too small to work with easily. O was too large to get as much on the layout as I wanted. So like Goldilocks I found S to be just right. I have found that there are fewer operational problems with S than HO, but that might be due to some of my HO being cheaper locos.
However, I also have a table under my S layout where I can run my Lionel with smoke and some action cars. So it doesn’t have to be all one or the other.
I started in O gauge trains back in the 70’s and have some pre-war stuff that is my dad’s, I love O gauge and will not give it up! Have gone to GarGraves track for looks and the quality of thier switches, also lower profile than Lionel or MTH switches which means less derailments at switches, sometimes GarGraves track can be a problem at switches because of the track not being level enough.
Have two S gauge trains that I got near 1972 that are from the 50’s and work well when maitained. Also have GarGraves track for most of my S gauge layout.
Also have some H.O. that my first wife encouraged me to get for her son. Most stuff in H.O. is good quality except for Life Like trains, Life Like makes good quality accessories such as trees and buildings. Another problem that you may encounter in H.O. is using flexible track as you must be experianced first with regular track before using flex track as I found out the hard way[banghead].
Hi! I am an HO veteran and am now ‘playing with’ O27. (The guys on this forum are tired of hearing about my 50 years in HO)
I agree with much that has been posted. From the aesthetic side of the hobby, I still think that you can do more in a smaller space with HO. That being said, I found that some of the less expensive HO engines and rolling stock do have the tendency to derail. Some of the problems arise when the snap track is not tightly joined together or the flexible track is bent with unrealistic curves. This does occur more often on moveable layouts. Although the nickel silver track works better than brass or steel, it still requires maintenance.
Because of the smaller size, the wiring becomes a little more tedious and the standard Power Packs, Selectors, Controllers, Connectors and Switch Control Box screws require steady hands, patience and good eye sight. (My HO layouts had blocks, individual cab control and multiple yard switches.)
All and all, HO is wonderful if you have the desire to build “a little realistic world” and operate a railroad empire within it. You can certainly do a lot of things. BUT, like everything else, it is an individual choice.
I really enjoyed my HO but am glad I am now into O. I like the feel of the cars, the ease in assembly, the variety of scale and traditional items, the powerful transformers and the newer innovations of sound and control. Also, I like the fact that I can “play with” my trains instead of having to “operate” my trains.
I know this was a rambling post but I ain’t got nothing else to do…Thanks for asking.
I have tons of HO and some of most every other scale. I never had a lot of trouble with HO. I think most scales have their own individual problems, but I don’t really think any one scale is more problematic than another.
John O - HO trackwork is as bullet proof as it is laid down. Modular layouts in every scale get gremlins. It sounds like you have MSID (Multiple Scale Interest Disorder).
Here at F**ifedog Techknowledgies, our specialists are working daily to uncover the genetic code that will unlock MSID, allowing those afflicted with MSID as well as OSE (Other Scale Envy) to focus their modelling efforts on one gauge.
I like the layouts in model railroader too. I have always had n-scale with my O-scale and some G scale as well. You talk about the detail in Ho and it is true some of these layouts are just amazing, but few are there but where they do showcase a O-gauge layout the detail is just spectilur. I really love the O-scale logging layouts. But my point is if a 1/87 layout can look great it is just as easy to make a 1/48 layout look great, maybe easier. I like to scratch build G-scale cars 1:20.3 and these are big and very easy to work on I think it would be no problem modeling o-scale but I am sure I don’t have the skills or patients to scratch build in HO or N. A great looking layout is a work of art and I think any layout that looks as good as some in the magazines look have some super talented artists behind them.
But O Scale is just way too stout and BIG that the little gremlins that stop HO or smaller just gets squished by the magnatraction or what ever they call it today.
I am a three railer in O and find it way too expensive at this point in time to get into it, go figure.
If you are going to have problems in HO it’s either:
A short.
No Lube.
Not enough power.
Not enough electricity or good wiring.
Poor rail joiners.
No frog power.
Crappy trackwork.
Bad wood joints.
Deep S Curves that will break rolling stock in half.
etc etc etc.
Sometimes at shows they just run way too fast and not watch it closely. That one dragging wheel halfway back into a train consist can get caught in something and create a 50 car wreck with parts splattering all over the floor.
HOj (1:80 scale on 16.5mm gauge rails) can be made as bulletproof as the modeler is willing to make it. All it takes is adopting a set of standards, then being very self-disciplined about enforcing them.
Proof of statement - I just finished a yard throat with two assymetric (two right curves plus tangent) three way switches. It took about ninety minutes of test running and tweaking, but now I can back a full-length freight into any one of the four curved yard tracks at track speed with nary a hiccup or bobble.
Shows, where everything has to be set up overnight, are notorious for the prevalence of Murphy’s Law. The smaller scales DO require more care, and involve working to closer tolerances. OTOH, I’ve seen some of Lionel’s latest and greatest go up in smoke (literally!) when somebody inadvertently over-powered them with a direct tie to house-current voltage. Luckily, no one touched the rails before the problem was diagnosed - electrocution can ruin your whole day!
The recurring theme appears to be that the smaller scales can be as reliable as an O gauge layout provided that one takes the appropriate time and care. For any hobbyist, enjoyment comes from how you spend your time in the hobby. For me, I don’t think I would have the patience it appears to take to appropriately lay track on a HO layout. As I stated above, I may try a small switching layout, just to give it a try. For now, I will continue with my O gauge layout and continue to lurk around the MR forum.
I appreciate everyone’s feedback. There are pros and cons to every aspect of this hobby and the comments of posters further proves that there is no “best” way to enjoy model trains.
John – On the general question(s) about just how much attention to detail, maintenance, patience, etc., are needed for a smooth-running HO layout, you’d probably do better to post the question at one of the Model Railroader forums – I suspect that lots of people there would be happy to discuss their experiences, good and bad, including just how much work they had to put into making everything work right. – Martin
I have never strayed from the true faith! In the early 70’s I had a friend that had a large HO layout in his basement. He was a fanatic about prototypical detail. He tried to lure me over and for a brief moment or two I almost followed the lure. I even looked at some HO trains in the hobby store. Of course, common sense got a hold of me again. I have never looked back. My friend was worried about everything he did. He would ask over and over again if this building looked right. Could this engine have operated during this time period. Is that bit of scenery out of place, etc. Reminded me of the bookkeeper mentality. Its is all about how I feel about my trains, my layout, and how much fun I have! Right now my four year old son has James and Thomas on track right beside the my 2056 from 1952. It doesn’t get any better than that!
In all fairness, it is a challenge to do anything at a show - especially for some of those non-module layouts…