Let’s say that a quite old and rare loco is retrofitted with let’s say a more reliable and smoother motor,maybe a functional headlamp and,while at it,why not a DCC decoder.Assuming this retrofit is done by a highly skilled crafstman,does this engine see it’s value increased due to it’s much better operational qualities or does it simply become thra***o collectors as it is not “original” any more?Just curious…
If it was an O scale locomotive, and knowing the O scale collectors the way I do, you better leave well enough alone if you want the model to maintain it’s value. You might find a collector interested in the upgrades, but most want an original IMHO.
As far as the other scales go, I’m not really sure as I didn’t think much of that stuff appreciated to any extent???
Tough call. On the one hand you are improving the running qualities, but in doing so you are basicly taking a shelf piece and turning it into a runner. On the other, collector value is usually about appearence, not mechanical qualities. The thing is, leave it on the layout long enough and nicks and scratches will happen
I used to “collect” Lionel, but over the last 15 years I shifted my focus to operation, and ran a lot of the collector value right out of my trains.
Out of curiosity, what is the item in question?
Personally, I would run it and enjoy it. What’s the point of leaving it in the box?
I would think that for Lionel and Am Flyer and such the collector value would be impaired by non=original modifications. In HO and possibly scale O guage the enhancements would not detract and might enhance. I’m primarily an operator so maybe some HO collector types can jump in and correct me if I’m wrong.
“What’s the point of leaving it in the box?”,or "what’s the point of owning something to not enjoy it?.Very well said Big Boy 4005.Model locos and rolling stocks aren’t paintings,so weren’t designed to be only displayed.There can be a lot of pride to have a quite rare loco displayed but isn’t it more pleasurable to run it occasionally?
I raised the question because I’m what I’d call a “semi-collector”.I like to set my hands on odd models,most long out-of-production models,but yet don’t qualify as rare items.They were produced in fair quantities but are in high demand now simply because a lot of guys want them.
I just fitted my N scale Veranda (Con-Cor) with DCC and DEL lighting which has indeed improved its operational value but I was wondering if I had improved or impaired it’s market value in doing so.I’m in the process of doing the same to my Rivarrossi Challenger so that I can have it sitting on my layout without having it “sing” it’s heart out and run it occasionally too.
I also enjoy the technical challenge and believe that if I was to try to sell them on Ebay in the future,I’d still get something for these items.However,I’d probably shy away from doing so to a rare brass loco that call for twice or three times the costs,fearing that I could lose big time on such,but…come to think of it…maybe I would…
Depends on the locomotive, but for true collectors original condition with box is desired. As a collectible, it’s operational characteristics are not important as long as it operates as it did when it was new. As a collection item it will be displayed not run. Any changes will detract from it’s collectible value, however, those which can’t be seen such as motor upgrade, dcc board, etc. will have less negative impact on value than say repainting and decaling.
OTH the the loco may not be worth much in any case, old and rare does not always mean valuable, also condition can play a large part in value. If its not valuable, then upgrade.
If it is valuable (and has no sentimental value), I would sell it and buy a more recent product with better motor, details, etc.
Enjoy
Paul
I think in HO and N scale improving the mechanical qualities or adding lighting should not impair a models value. Unfortunately, from what I have seen on E-Bay weathering a model probably does lower it’s “collector” value as each individual has his/her own concept of how much is enough.
Bob DeWoody
Con-cor and Rivorrossi are considered “running” brands while brass engines are consider “collectible” and are usually simply displayed and not run. I recall reading an incident where a reputable brass manufacturer inadvertenly installed 6-volt motors in their engines. Naturally, they offered to replace the motors free of charge, but had takers on only half their production run.
Jactal, the only time you would ever find out the true value of the piece is if you sold it. It sounds like you really like this engine and plan to keep it. Let your heirs worry about what it’s worth. Enjoy it here and now. It has taken me years to figure that out, but I finally get it.
I’ve seen a lot of model trains over the years, and as others have noted, when it comes to HO and N, there isn’t much collectable material. Brass of course is the exception, and maybe some of the early pieces. Brass because it is usually made in such limited quantities, and oldies because time tends to destroy and otherwise lose examples, making them rare.
An unbuilt Varney kit for example, may be worth more than the built version of the same kit. Generally people who bought Varney kits, assembled them and used them, so to find one unbuilt is unusual, especially after all these years.
In the market place we may see out of production items go for higher prices, not because they are truly rare (large quantities were produced), but because they are much loved by their owners and don’t come up for sale often.
Leon, that actually sounds pretty accurate, about a 50 - 50 split between shelves / boxes vs operators. I’ve seen a lot of guys run brass. On a recent layout tour, one guy had added DCC to some older models, and in the process also remotored them.
Early brass used to be notoriously poor runners, but when can motors hit the market, the manufacturers corrected a lot of those problems, making them virtually ready to run.
I don’t follow brass, but isn’t much of the new stuff coming factory painted? This kind of begs the question, if you buy an unpainted brass model, and give it a quality paint job, what have you done to the value?
Jacktal,
I’ve seen what some folks call “improved” and it has almost always been a mess. I collect stuff for me to run, and if it is for operation, I will usually modify only the minimal things needed to get it to perform better, and usually this is something that can be returned to original condition. There are pieces that will always look like they are 1950s vintage, but they are 50+ years old! They can’t compete with the level of detail and performance of late 1990s or 2000 era stuff, and they shouldn’t be expected to. But, with a little attention, they can usually be made to run better without seriously altering their original design, appearance, or mechanical equipment.
Mark C.
A lot depends on the collector. If he is building a collection to display and wants everything as origional as possible, then he will degrade it because the alterations that were made and not account for the upgrades. It is likely he will plan to sell it once he finds a fully origional piece so paying a prenium is not an option.
If he is a collector who plans to operate, he will degrade the alterations made to the origional components but add the value of the upgrade for what it’s worth. If the engine is common, there is not much value to devalue so go ahead and alter it as you wish. I have purchased a few Atlas N scale pieces from the 70’s and upgraded them with MT trucks and couplers. I bought them for nostalgia sake but I want them to operate I wi***hey had operated in their day. I could really care less about the value because I did not pay much for the pieces to begin with.
As a longtime member of the NMRA’s HO Collectors and History Special Interest Group, I fully echo Big Boy’s remarks. Very little in HO is truly collectible. However, when it does come to the pieces that are really sought after (largely pre-war items), totally original is the name of the game and most critical collectors won’t even look at a dramatically modified engine with new motors, drive train, DCC, etc. The ultimate is the unbuilt kit, second comes the model assembled by a craftsman, then one put together by the average hobbyist, and finally there is the only fair example with a few parts missing. Modified locomotives also fall within this last category. Very, very few true collectors will ever consider running items in their collections.
As to the question of preference in brass, according to the well know brass dealer John Glaab, the 1st choice among collectors is unpainted, followed by f/p, and then custom painted by a recognized painter. Owner painted examples are generally avoided.
CNJ831
Guys,I sold a Bev/Bel/Athearn New Hope & Ivyland 50’ per diem boxcar for a amount above $25.00…The collector also wanted the X2F couplers that I had in the original box…You see collectors usually want things like new from the box.This is why I refuse to weather my cars.[:D]
I don’t consider myself a collector, but I did retain the following HO brass when I converted to S…
Two Tenshodo 4-8-8-4s in the orginal boxes
United L131 2-8-8-2 remotored and regeared by Sagami
Balboa GS-4 Daylight 4-8-4,w/12 car Daylight set
Key GS-4 Black paint 4-8-4
Balboa Alco PA A-B-B-A D&RGW five stripe custom paint
repowered/regeared by sagami
Key SP 4-10-2
Key D&RGW 4-8-2
Key UP 2-8-8-0
United UP 0-6-0
Westside Skunk Train 2-8-2 and three pasenger cars, cars
have never had trucks or couplers installed and are in
the orginal box unpainted.
How many remember the logging camp car series
by Northwest Short Line in 70s? Complete set unpainted
never out of the indvidule boxes, trucks,couplers never
installed nor painted.
I’ve remotored and regeared and in some cases painted or repainted, all but the Big Boys and skunk set, hence are they still true to design?
Will a logging modeler and not collector consider NWSL specialized rolling stock