How did railroads like Union Pacific, Northern Pacific, and Great Northern maintain their passenger trains in the years before Amtrak? Let’s say from 1967 to the start of Amtrak in 1971. I know NP was a pro-passenger road, and GN and UP may have shared similar sentiments. Did these roads maintain an air of professionalism in those final years, or did they slack off towards the end?
My last UP passenger trip was from Salt Lake City to Omaha in August of 1967. (I continued on to Chigago but I don’t remember if it was CNW or RI that handled that segment.)
The staff was very professional - helpful and friendly. However the equipment was another story. It was clean and comfortable but we were frequently delayed by equipment malfunctions – and the A/C on my car was out for all of the trip.
The train was about 5 hours late getting into Omaha. Part of the problem was that the WP was about 2 hours late getting into Ogden - but the train got later and later throughout the trip.
I will never forget that trip.
dd
Chris,
I do not know about UP but in Washington State both GN and NP ran two pairs of trains each way daily. GN Empire Builder and NP North Coast Limited were premier trains both excellent until late 1960’s by my personal knowledge, presume continued so up to Amtrak. GN Western Star was a heavy mail train with 3-4 passenger cars in this era. NP Mainstreeter was similar but without the mail so ran shorter, 6-7 cars as I recall. I worked for GN in Wenatchee at the time and my uncle was conductor on NCL between Seattle and Ellensburg. Rode all these trains, and NP several times including cab rides. Those are the good old days!
Also SP&S ran Portland Sections of EB/NCL and Star/Mainstreeter between Spokane and Portland, picking up and setting out NP cars in Pasco. That was 6 pairs of trains. Amtrak ran one pair of trains day one and still does. Oh, boy! (I hope you can hear the sarcasm)
Mac
I rode the NP Mainstreeter and found the service excellent, the “ranch car” food good, and the equipment clean but looking a bit worn. Only experience with the GN was with their equipment on combined trains on the Burlington between the Twin Cities and Chicago, and their equipment did not look as worn as NP’s. I think I also rode the North Coast Limited, and if I remember the only real difference between this premier train and the Mainstreeter was that the North Coast Limited ran with a full lounge car and a full diner, and the Mainstreeter only with the “ranch” car which served both functions. If my memory is correct.
In addition to using the Sante Fe during this period, which always gave top grade service and clean well maintained equipment and sharp operations, I also rode the UP,
Thanks for the replies so far. [:I] Since I was born in 1968, and missed out on pre-Amtrak passenger trains, I can only wonder, what it was like to personally ride on one of UP’s City trains, or the North Coast Limited, or Empire Builder, let alone the Super Chief! [;)] Thanks again for sharing the memories. Where’s that time machine when you need it?? [:D]
I recall reading that at some point in that final time of passenger service, the Burlington’s California Zephyr (IIRC) replaced their fine dining with vending machines!
Excuse the interruption. Continuing with my UP passenger experiences. The UP coaches and Pullmans and diners did not quite have the sparkle of the AT&SF’s trains, but the service was pretty good and the food excellent. Then two things happened. They got dome diners for the City of LA, and shortly afterward the City of SF was combined with it to Ogden, and eating in a dome diner was a terrific experience. (An SP diner was used Ogden - Oakland.) The next event was a special train as reported in TRAINS for European investors to tour the UP, and for them the UP completely refurbished about 20 cars, mostly Pullmans (6 & 10s) and diners and lounge cars. The cars were then better than new, with teak or walnut replacing paint on metal partitions, etc, really a beautiful job, making this UP equipment the equal of the AT&SF. And then they continued with most of the rest of fleet bringing it up to the same standard. The main reason the UP’s train was not equal to those of the AT&SF, is that before Amtrak they were essentially running one train, which we called “The City of Everywhere”. The City of Portland, the City of Denver, the City of Los Angeles, and the City of San Francisco were essentaily one train! And a long one. And the time required for station stops and splitting and assembling the train meant that time-wise, it could not compete with the Super Chief or the El Capitan (combined during the off season) Chicago - LA, nor with the Denver Zephyr Chicago - Denver. The Chicago Portland service was still fairly close to the time of the Empire Buuilder and the North Coast Limited, with their SP&S connection, maybe even faster.
I rode the last eastbound City of LA, and the service was still excellent, but we did not have a dome diner. We did have 844 in front of the E units Rawlins - Cheyenne! Great watching it from the front dome.
I was in error when I menationed I had not ridden a GN train. I did once. I once used the overnight Winnipeg - Twin Cities through CN-GN tr
The Winnipeg-Twin Cities train was the “Winnipeg Ltd”. It was later cut back from the Twin Cities to Grand Forks (I think) where it connected with the “Western Star” in each direction.
Judging from what I’ve read, both online and in books, Santa Fe’s service was in a class all its own -right? Regarding UP’s one train does it all “City of Everywhere,” that’s pretty amazing how UP could start out with one supersized passenger train, run it to a particular point (Ogden?), and then divide it up into smaller trains to continue on to separate destinations. Must have been a pain having to make two stops at the same station with such a train.
Chris:
The DRGW could almost match ATSF in the days before Amtrak. DRGW elected to continue their trains after Amtrak. ATSF/ Cena almost did, but the auditors overuled the pride side of the equation. The loss of the mail contract (still questionable in some corridors if the truckers could ever deliver better , faster service) and the subsidized airline boom finally did the private trains in)…The cloud of PC and the other failing roads at the time did not help the situation. The balance sheet seems to trump intrinsic worth every time and the balance sheet is blind to linkages of different public services.
The GN maintained first class trains as did the NP right up to Amtrak. One year before Amtrak the BN merger took place. But the GN, NP and CB&Q equipment was operated as before the merger without mixing equipment. The Empire Builder still provided the most dome seats and the combined Empire Builder North Coast Limited Morning Zephyr operated on many summer days with as many as ten or eleven domes between St. Paul and Chicago. First class Dining cars and ranch cars were operated in the Empire Builder and NCL operated with first class domes Dining cars and the Lewis & Clark travelers rest. The UP City of Portland was a shorter train than the other two and in the final year the Dome diners were sidelined and regular dining cars operated. The CofP operated eight or nine cars west of Green River the summer before Amtrak.
A bit about the paint of the equipment. The Burlington owned coaches and sleepers painted in the NP and GN colors, so did the SP&S. So after combination, the Q’s morning Zephyr was a multi-colored train. But the NP and Q slumbercoaches were always stainless steel and operated in pool to maximize usefulness. So one could see an NP slumbercoach on the Denver Zephyr, keeping that train all-stainless, or on the overnight Blackhawk. The Blackhawk was also the connection for the Mainstreeter and the GM second train (forget its name, someone remind me please), and I once was amused riding overnight in an NP slumbercoach to Minneapolis and learning it would return to Chicago while the 10-6 Burlington sleeper (in NP colors) and and an NPcoach would go on to Seattle. After the Mainstreeter was discontinued, or perhaps just stopped through cars to Chicago, the Blackhawk continued only with coaches and the slumbercoach, the first class sleeper was dropped. About the same time the overnight Pioneer was dropped by the Milwaukee Road. The North Coast Limited thus usually had one stainless steel Budd slumbercoach and it could be either an NP or CB&Q car.
The SP and the Milwaukee had equipment painted in UP colors, and only rarely did stainless or grey SP equipment run east of Ogden. It did happen sometimes. But west of Ogden usually one could see UP Armour yellow, and both SP grey and SP stainless on the train.
GN secondary transcontinental named Western Star by late 1960’s was combined with fast mail and resembled a freight train with no more than four or five passenger carrying cars that were in the middle of the consist instead of at the end where they should have been. Looked strange to see one of the beautiful Mountain series observations with mail cars coupled to rear.
In other threads we’ve discussed how great the Sant Fe passenger service was in the '60s. And it was. I can testify to that. I have to state that the Q’s service was right up there with the Santa Fe. I rode both and was equally impressed. I recall vividly the 2 sections of CB&Q 1 (The Denver Zypher) that was run during the summer madness to the west. All the equipment matched. It never looked as if they pulled it out of storage. You could count on all the trucks being freshly silvered as well when they became grimy.
I learned how to prepare railroad French Toast from a Burlington chef.
When I became a brakeman on the C&M Division on the Milwaukee, the early Amtrak versions of the Hi and Builder were still nice. We still had porters that had come from the PULLMAN Company. It was a pleasure to be the “ragmaster” (flagman) on Amtrak no 9 out of Chicago and have the Silver Chateau or Silver Veranda, former Denver Zypher observation parlor lounge cars on the hind end.
Mitch
The City of Everywhere didn’t only switch at Ogden. At Omaha or Council Bluffs the Chicago - Denver equipment was switched, and at Cheyenne the St. Louis - Wabash RR - Kansas City - Oakland equipment was switched (usually two coaches and a sleeper). I’ll give the UP credit for often using two diners on the train to handle the load between Chicago and Ogden.
On the GN and NP passenger trains with diners and either a ranch car or Traveler’s Rest car, was one car for sleeping car patrons and the other for coach patrons, or was it possible for coach passengers to have dinner in the diner? I gather that differences between the dining car and the ranch car were the items offered on the menus between the two cars, and the price of said items. Also, didn’t passengers traveling in the sleeping cars (first class?) pretty much have the run of the train, while coach travelers were allowed access to some places but not others?
Thanks for all the answers so far! [:)]
In its final years of service the Empire Builder as operated by the GN permitted sleeping car passengers the run of the train but coach passengers were not permitted past the dining car. The Ranch car after losing its bar space was almost exclusively the domain of the coach passengers. The GN did permit coach passengers to use the lower level bar in the great dome lounge car after the Ranch car lost the bar. But coach passengers were never permitted in the upper level of the great dome lounge car this was always reserved for the sleeping car passengers. The NP allowed coach passengers access to the dining car for meals but did not permit them to go aft of the dining car. The Lewis and Clark travellers rest served meals and drinks to coach passengers but sleeping car passengers were also permitted use of this car. Since slumbercoach passengers were coach passengers they were restricted to the same cars as the other coach passengers of the North Coast Limited. The lounge in the last last dome sleeping car of the North Coast Limited was always the exclusive domain of the sleeping car passengers. Before the Lounge in the Sky came to be the NCL operated with a sleeper lounge observation that was for the exclusive use of sleeping car passengers. The UP permitted coach passengers use of the dining cars including the dome diners but did not encourage it. The dome lounge cars operated in the City of Portland, City of Los Angeles and City of St. Louis were for the exclusive use of sleeping car passengers only. The CN Super Continental was interesting in they carried a Super Dome between Edmonton and Vancouver and permitted coach and sleeping car passengers to use the dome level but the bar under the dome was reserved for sleeping car passengers only. Tyhese trains carried a separte lounge area for coach passengers. Hope this answers some of your questions.
Thanks for the reply passengerfan. I sort of figured that there were different places that were accessible for both coach and sleeping car passengers, and your reply confirmed it. So the best way to travel long distance by train was (and probably still is) by sleeping car, provided your budget allowed for it.
In equipment listings in timetables and The Official Guide you’ll see certain cars that have the note “For Sleeping Car Passengers or Pullman passengers Only.” This indicates the restrictions. The budget diners, i.e. “Ranch Car,” or “Lewis and Clark Travellers Rest” cars were provided for economy minded guests. On trips I’ve had breakfast or lunch in the one and dinner in the other.
Some railroads on their coupon strip tickets for first class referred to this as “Unrestricted Class.” There also was a formula to compute “Mixed Class” fares. This was done to provide a passenger with a fare where by day they would travel in coach, and then for the evening portion of the trip they could move to Pullman accomodations.
Mitch
In the late 60’s I worked on the ‘Q’, and the GN Empire Builder was the premier train. The only thing more important was the Winnepeg Limited arrival in St Paul(2 RPO’s of mail). The Denver Zephyr was really the flagship on the ‘Q’, even watched closer by management that the CZ. By the time of the merger, the NP passenger service was down to the NCL, the Mainstreeter, and a Seattle-Portland ‘pool’ train. The NCL was a first class operation, but the Mainstreeter suffered in it’s final years. The NP went very anti-passenger under the Menk leadership and a lot of train-off’s happened. The GN had a pretty full complement of good trains, but also had a lot of mail contracts to support their passenger operation.
I only rode the CZ once, but I never remember ‘vending’ machines. The train ran with it’s full set of equipment into the BN era, but was cut short by the WP termination of the western leg of the route. It was replaced by ‘California Service’ every 3rd day, and a cross platform/bus transfer to the SP ‘City of San Francisco’ at SLC/Ogden. Amtrk started up shortly and the original CZ was gone.
Jim Bernier