A Road Switcher Question

Trains Magazine General Discussion
1

If this question has been answered previously, I apologize. I am curious to know a little
more about the history and rationale for the “F” that has been painted on one end or
the other of virtually every locomotive since the “road switcher” became prominent.

I have always assumed it stands for “front,” indicating in which direction the engine was
intended to be operated. If this is correct, I have a few questions:

  1. Was the direction of the lead engine an item in labor negotiations?

  2. Why was the “F” painted on engines with dual controls, such as some of the
    NS SD-40s?

  3. Why is it still to be found on modern wide cab engines? There can’t be much
    doubt which direction is the true “front” of these models.

I have always lived in NS territory, with its varied history of “long hood forward,”
“short high hoods,” “short end forward,” etc., so that makes the question especially
interesting to me. And, if the “F” means something else entirely, it’s about time I
learned what.

TIA for any information.

Regards, Joe McSpadden, Wabash, IN

2

Well Joe the “F” on the loco is for the front and required to be there by the FRA. When diesels started taking over from steam it was common practice for the long hood to be front (just like a steam locos boiler) with the thought that the prime mover and frame would provide more protection in a collision. Now on NS it is obvious that they run some road trains with the long hood leading, but the division of CSX that I worked on it was frowned upon. With widebody cabs it is a big pain in the neck to run them backwards.

3

You are correct; it indicates the front of a locomotive…

Now, a diesel could care less which way it’s pointed, they run just as well backing up as going forward…it has nothing to do with the actual operation of the locomotive.

The F is to give the ground crew a direction to tell the engineer to go…back up or come forward, or come ahead, what ever your road uses.

Daytime hand signals are directed towards the engineer, and indicate you want him to “come towards me” or “go away from me”…regardless of which way the “front” of the locomotive is facing.

At night, using lantern signals, you are talking to the locomotive, in a sense…and your lantern signals tell the locomotive to “come forward” or “back up”.

Which means you have to know which end of the locomotive is the “front end”.

An example…lets say your locomotive is coupled to a train, with the long hood facing away from the cars…you want to make a coupling in the middle of the track…what do you tell the engineer?

When he shoves the cars, is he backing up, or going ahead?

Because the F indication on most locomotives is on the short hood end, you would tell him to “come ahead (forward) a car length to a couple”…even though under normal circumstance ahead is away from the cars.

If you are out of sight of the engineer, and using the radio to give commands, you have to be able to tell him which direction to go…ahead (forward) or back up…so depending on which way the locomotive is couple to the cars, ahead may be towards you, or away from you.

4

F indicates the “front” of the locomotive, and is a FRA required marking.

Knowing the “front” is necessary when giving the engineer movement instructions. Unlike GCOR (Ed), NORAC rules require all movement instructions be based on the direction the locomotive is facing. So the end with the F is always ahead, and the end without is always back up.

Nick

5

Thanks, guys! Very interesting. The issue is clear and I feel like I
learned something.

Must have made for a confusing time a few years ago for Norfolk
Southern ground crews–when about half the fleet had the “F”
on the short hood end and about half on the long!!

Regards, Joe

6

The direction mark ties in to two other rules we have…

When using radio to give commands, you must specify direction to move, and the distance to move.

If I tell my engineer to “shove on them” and nothing more, he better sit still till I come back and tell him how far to shove…

And the companion rule to that is he can only move half the specified distance given, unless additional commands are given…

So, if I tell him “shove ‘em ten car lengths” he is by rule only allowed to move five car lengths, unless I come back with a new car count.

5.3.6 Radio and Voice Communication

Employees may use radio and other means of voice communication to give information when using hand signals is not practical. Employees must make sure crew members:

  • Know which moves will be made by radio communication.
  • Understand that while using the radio, the engineer will not accept any hand signals, unless they are Stop signals.

5.3.7 Radio Response

When radio communication is used to make movements, crew members must respond to specific instructions given for each movement. In addition:

  • Radio communications for backing and shoving movements must specify the direction and distance and must be acknowledged when distance specified is more than four cars.

Movement must stop within half of the distance specified unless additional instructions are received.

If you think about it, this makes a great deal of sense…

What if I fell off, got hurt or just flat out guessed about the distance and was wrong…or my radio failed?

What if we only had eight cars of room, and I was off in my guess by two car lengths?

Because he has to stop in half the distance in the last command I gave, I have to keep giving additional commands as we go, talking him down to the joint or coupl

7

Ed–thanks again. Your stuff is invariably interesting and informative.

I do wonder, though, if there isn’t one small sense in which there is
a relationship between the “F” and the direction the engine was
“intended” to be run:

Isn’t it true, that regardless of whether the “F” is painted on the long
hood end or the short hood end, it is ALWAYS placed in such a way
as to position the engineer’s control stand on the right-hand side
of the locomotive? I have sure noticed that to be true on all NS
engines, regardless of vintage.

Joe

8

I thought the F was to designate the type of extra knuckle for couplers. I recall seeing an engine with F stenciled on the short-hood end near to the extra knuckle.

9

Dan, the “F” for knuckles (usually matched by an “E” spot on the opposite side of the coupler) is a fairly recent development, in most cases arriving after the demise of cabooses, footboards, and the like. The “F” for front is located on the side of the locomotive, and has been around pretty much since before I was (and that’s a long time!).

GTW used to also have a “B” (for the Back end) on a number of its units.

10

I typically see locals with two units back to back. So which F is considered the front of the train?

11

If I undertand Ed correctly, the only “F” that matters is the one on
the unit the engineer is in.

Joe

12

When we are doing our run-arounds, all directions (and we usually go with hand signals) are given in relation to the “F” on the locomotive (in our case, usually an RS3 set up for long hood forward).

On the other hand, if we are working on the radio, and especially if we are moving an entire train (usually only 3-4 cars), we often give a compass direction - either north or south - as that is the general orientation of almost our entire line. So “OK to go north, clear for 10 cars” leaves no doubt in anyone’s mind (at least on our crew) as to which way we’re headed.

Since all of the cars we deal with are passenger cars, we usually think in 85’ increments rather than 50’.

Our trips north are backup moves on the way out - 6 miles worth of backup-hosing. Occasionally you’ll hear such calls as “Clear for 100…” That’s usually at the point were we have nearly a mile of tangent and you can really see that far.

13

Joe has it,

Whichever unit the engineer occupies is the unit that governs.

As Tree pointed out, you can back up till you run out of railroad, as long as you keep giving car counts.

Most yards have a limit on the max. car count, in the yard where I work, we can only give a count of 20 or less, but out on the road, it will depend on that particular railroad’s rules.

14

C’mon up, Ed!

You’d hear some of our guys call for “Shove back, 200 cars to the spot!” (of course, that was in the days before remote operation).

The count went down in a hurry, though…

15

The ‘half the distance’ rule does complicate things on curvy sections. You don’t want to call too far out, but you don’t want to have to give a new count every 5 seconds, either. Being out in the woods for the most part, where you’re more likely to encounter a deer or bear than a human on the tracks, most of us tend to go a bit longer than we would in a riskier area.

16

Yeah, but your yard is just a tad longer than North yard…by about a mile or two![:D]

17

With the former CB&Q SD9s with dual controls the engineer commonly set up the side that would place him on the right side of the locomotive when going foreward. That was really easy for the road and most switch jobs had one side which was commonly used on the job. So the locomotive might have the F on the end which was commonly the rear on the job but since he was on the right side of the locomotive when it was the normal direction of travel, ahead was what was usual no matter what end of the unit was designated F.

The NS units with the single control stands which can be leading the train in either direction are a bit more problematic. I have pretty much just settled on telling the engineer to take them East or West depending upon what is need for the move.