It doesn’t take much searching to see that there has been some storminess in these forums of late. In some respects it can be taken as a sign of health, in that there is such a broad spectrum of people here that there are many different ideas regarding both modeling and philosophy.
And no semi-public forum can endure for this long with no tumult. That’s natural.
But some things lately have been getting pretty ugly. And you know what? I’m part to blame. I enjoy what I do in the hobby (N scale prototype PRR modeling). But I can get pretty deeply wrapped up in it (as I can with all things I do) so as to lose sight of the bigger picture. I can lose perpective of what’s important to other people when it’s not what’s important to me.
If my posts have, in the past few months, been growing condescending or mean, I apologize. That’s not who I am or want to be. I love this hobby and I love sharing it with everyone.
I still believe that there ought to be a place here where we can share honest feedback with one another, but I also recognize that there is a wide spectrum of modeling objectives out there. My hope is to see the collective continuous improvement of the membership. I believe in honest praise where praise is due… I don’t exactly believe in being dishonest about praise, but there’s nothing wrong with staying quiet in those cases. And I believe that people who actually ask for feedback should brace themselvs for it. But never should any of it be conducted via personal attacks.
Just to show that I understand that my participation here has been less constructive lately, I’m putting my face back on my avatar![swg] That way it’s like I’m actually speaking, and I’d be much less inclined to say something I wouldn’t say in person.
If it helps, I don’t think you’ve been a jerk at all. I think some things have gotten out of hand on the forum, and like a lot of us, you may have been drawn into it, but I’ve never gotten the impression that you’ve instigated any of it. I like your posts, for me at least, they’ve never been immaturely condescending, and they CERTAINLY have not been as rude or childish as some of the others I’ve read on this forum. So don’t beat yourself up, I don’t think you need to.
Your photos of your work speaks for itself–you seem to me to be a serious modeler with one heck of a lot of craft under your belt. And your posts have always seemed to be fair to me, I’ve enjoyed them. And anyone who can kitbash Pennsy steam in N scale sure has my vote–at my age, HO is even starting to become too small for my eyeballs, LOL!
Cliff Dave, you are quite correct about the storminess here (and with your backround in the weather dept. we all expect you to fix it![swg]) but with anything in this world to much stress tends to deform the original object. I think we all have our “sacred cows” (I think it was Autobus Prime who stated that a few weeks ago) to uphold but the manner in which we uphold them is the manner in which we want to be presented to others, whether online or in person. The forum biologists who disect posts line by line (usually with a spoon instead of a scapel) appear to hold their sacred cows to such a high standard that no one else will ever acheive that level model railroading holiness.
Offering constructive criticism IMO is the golden rule. I do it at home with my family, at work with my coworkers and supervisors, with my friends, and online in the various forums that I participate in. I BELEIVE that the key is to attempt to offer some positive thoughts along with the items that need improvement regardless of how crappy the detailing is, regardless of how splotchy the paint is, regardless of how thoughless the question wording may seem. And there are times like you said when silence is the best course of action.
The dynamic you mention…I think it can be described a gathering of many, many people with varied interests in a single aspect of life. Some of us express that interest in just offering input in certain areas, some in giving input in almost all areas, and others by just being here.
I’ll be honest. I ain’t as eloquent as many here are but this is my contribution to the topic.
I need to add, Dave/Cliff/Mr. Nscale is one of the members here that convinced me that N is better than HO in MY SITUATION. His pics are great, his site is awesome, his advice is…I ran out of highly complimentary remarks…
[#ditto] to twhite’s comments. Dave, I have seen your frustration, but I have always considered you one of the most considerate and helpful members of this forum and you have by and large been one of the best spokesmen for wanting and taking one’s skills to the next level. I hope for all the members of this forum that we can finally move on to what this forum is all about:
I’ve been a daily viewer of this forum for approximately 6 months and really do not know what you are apologizing for? You’ve always been very helpful, constructive, and your input is valued and appreciated. So from my perspective please keep up the good work, I’ll be looking forward to your future posts on this interesting forum.
Thanks for the kind words. Believe it or not I wasn’t fishing for them. But thanks anyway!
Listen, I still have very strong convictions regarding modeling… I always will. I’m a perfectionist (but most certainly not perfect!). My father’s family were all perfectionists… My grandfather would always refer to himself as a “stubborn Dutchman.” By that he meant German (in southeastern PA you’re either Dutch or English!). Alles in ordnung!
Some folks may not agree with my choice to apologize publicly (and I know it sounds like egomaniacal grand-standing), but this is how I was raised. Crandell let me know that some of you have truly been offended by a few of my posts; that’s not why I’m here.
I want to provoke thought, not ire. But, I would submit that we would all do well to grow a slightly thicker skin… Lately it seems like a good many of us (me too) are reacting out of proportion to a good many things… Is it cabin-fever?
Could be ‘cabin fever’. In my case it was a new roof put on the garage (my California basement) and despite my attempts to cover the layout, it still looks like a wood-storm hit the place (I’m still vacuuming out there since October) plus the fact that a neighborhood kitty decided that my engine terminal was a really cool place to nap. Gets one a little short-tempered, at times! Got most of the wood-chips up, now I’m trying to find out where the neighborhood kitty is getting in (they crawl through the SMALLEST places!). So I’ll probably be a little testy until Spring when I can raise the garage door and sweep everything out. INCLUDING the neighborhood kitty.
Pennsylvania Deutsch, huh? Part of my family came from there about the 1880’s. Little town called–of all things–Intercourse. Lucky you–at least your Scrapple is the real thing, not served up on a Taco shell like they try it out here.
I was thinking just today about the statement of the person who called you the sel-appointed N scale spokesman. I don’t know if that particular gentleman was angry or envious, but the fact is that you’re an enthusiastic advocate of your chosen scale and you’ve just been speaking your mind with enthusiasm. Apparently the aforementioned gentleman has confused enthusiasm with the anointing of oneself to high office. As for the rest, in no instance have I detected any condescension in any of your posts regardless of the subject, nor have I seen anything that even approached the flaming stage. As a matter of fact, nothing I’ve seen you post has even come close to Fahrenheit 451, the point at which paper will start burning. At best, it has approached Fahrenheit 153, the point at which Sublime becomes Ridiculous. [swg]
I’d also like to add that I appreciate your public “apology” and accept it. I also appreciate you sharing your heart and passion for what you care about. And, I can also appreciate (and relate to) the “perfectionist” comments because I “suffer” from the same ailment myself. It is what drives me to become a better modeler and learn what I can from books and the fine folks here on the MR forum.
What I try to be careful of is imposing the same standard I have for myself unfairly onto others. (Dave, I am by no means implying that you were or ever did.) I usually offer suggestions of things to try or what things I have found that have worked for me in helping others. If someone uses it or finds it helpful - great! If they don’t or seemingly pass over what I’ve offered - that’s okay, too. I may be a little “miffed” at first but I’ll get over it. [:)]
It is true that we can become too overly sensitive to “cricitism” - well-meaning or not. On the other hand, how one phrases a “criticism” can go a long way to spurring another on to better modeling. Whenever I’m put in that position, I always like to imagine how I would want someone to bring up a similar point to me. I then phrase my answer accordingly.
My hope is that these trimmers that we’ve been experiencing these past few days and weeks (or growing pains, as Crandell put it) can help to define and solidify the purpose and intent of our forum, and make it a better place to be a part of and experience.
Some folks may not agree with my choice to apologize publicly (and I know it sounds like egomaniacal grand-standing), but this is how I was raised. Crandell let me know that some of you have truly been offended by a few of my posts; that’s not why I’m here.
If someone is so “sensitive” as to be offended by any of your posts, they would be equally offended if you sneezed in the key of B flat. Marie Antoinette’s advice about cake would apply in that case, although I think I would substitute another substance for cake.
I agree with the others that I don’t see a need for an apology.
But I do feel that folks on the forum are sometimes a little too quick with constructive criticism. While I agree that there should be room for it on this forum, I also agree that we need to wait for someone to request it first.
One thing I always try to keep in mind is that the printed word can be colder than intended because all the non-verbal audio/visual parts of a conversation are not present. Sometimes I’m not sure if a post is meant to be humurous or not. And some of mine that are supposed to be don’t always come across that way.[sigh]
And as for advocating N scale - well as you said, one can’t be right about everything.[(-D]
Same difference, but it’s nicer to quote word for word if possible. Which brings me to this…
I felt neither one of those things, Andre. I don’t have envy or anger over any of Dave’s accomplishments, modeling skills, vernacular, way of life, etc. Whatever he’s accomplished in his life, great for him, hope he gets all the rewards he deserves. What did bother me (not anger though) was the way he tends to talk down to people, like the way jktrains and driline do all the time. Appartently he did some looking back at some of his posts, maybe he was contacted via PM, or maybe he’s a new man, I don’t know. Whatever the reason, Dave realized he was being condescending in his posts and now wants to fix it. Awesome!
Dave and I don’t know each other in the real world. Maybe if we did, I may know what makes him tick and he may know what makes me tick and we’d have a better understanding of our thought processes, heck, we may even be best friends! (BFF NE1?) Since we don’t personally know each other, all we have is this online persona that we parade around here, so that’s what I base my impressions on. Dave (and many others, I’m sure) may not like me here on this forum, all I can say to that is: “Oh well, deal with it”. I know there are some people here that I don’t like, but oh well, I deal with it.
Dave, thank you for getting rid of that cheers guy from you
Well I noticed your new thread on being a different person in the forum, and saying you are sorry. I think it takes a better man to say sorry to people, so hats off to you.
I would like to say something to you about your current new statis in this forum, it reminds me of a few years back when you really had a caring heart and came accross to others as a man with respect. Maybe your right it could be cabin fever for you and others. The thread that JK started on WEEKEND PHOTO FORUM, was moving in the right direction, but as you seen, it started to get a little bit focused on some sort of point to the so called whiners. Now this is just what I noticed and I could be wrong also, I’m not anymore perfect than anyone else. But when you put the label out their for everyone to see about “whiners, yahoos, and idiots”, I think this started a rash of PM and emails to the moderators. This ended with Crandal and some others piping up and voicied their dislike in the comments, and yours where not the only ones that were thrown out there either. It was a good thread that started to turn toxic, and in turn got ugly in the end.
You stepping forward and saying you were sorry was a great step for you Dave, and starting your new thread about your role in MR. The thing is Dave and allot of people have been pointing this out for months, is to be nice to someone, or something in the critics corner. The thread that JK started had that kind of thoughts in it for awhile and took on a different tone so to speak as far being critic’s. It was more even and smooth on the edges I thought, but dragging the thin skinned and whiners back and forth through the thread killed it.
I have been in this hobby for just at 30 years now, and still learning, working on my, well I think its 7th or 8th layout, and am always looking for new ideas and thoughts. There is nothing wrong with learning something new or aquire new info on the hobby, or even offereing some help to s
I wouldn’t say “new man,” I’d probably say “same old man…”
I won’t bore you all with details, but the stress levels in my life are at an all-time high outside of my last combat deployment. I’ve been in the final stages of preparing my PhD dissertation among other issues. I don’t offer that as an excuse, but just as context.
These forums are a great place to “let off steam (pun intended)” since I don’t want to burden my wife and kids 24/7 with my stresses. But as Tony points out it’s too easy to hide behind an electronic alter-ego. Of course, I’ve used my real name (and often real face, too) in part to temper that. Things got away from me there for a bit.
I don’t suspect any of my detractors have alterior motives… I think they just noticed my tone had changed. Actually I’m quite grateful that someone out there had the fortitude to give it to me straight.
I have not been privy to any of your postings that got “nasty”, so for my part you are A-OK.
I have posted a couple of items over the last year that a couple of folks responded unnecessarily rough and critical (i.e. “if you have been in the hobby so long, you should know the answer to that question”, “if you lived in New York for 6 weeks, you should know how to spell Manhatten”, and a few others).
Sometimes my skin is a little thin, and I guess because of this I always try to be tolerant and understanding of others. But there are those few that just have to laud themselves over others - or criticize when it isn’t necessary.
But may I point out that it seems like the same folks (very few I might add) are like this, and the vast majority of posters are positive, helpful, and tactful. As my dear ol Dad used to say, “Tact & diplomacy is the ability to tell someone to go to Hxll, and have them look forward to the trip”!
I agree with you that there has been a noticable rise in the temper of this forum lately. Cant say that you are to blame anymore than anyone else. I dont keep a nasty log. LOL What I have noticed since I first got here is the number of times people chew someone out about a subject and when I go back and look at the original post it was not even close to what the person originally said. I usually bite my tongue ( fingers ) and let go. In the grand scheme of things how important is it?
Constructive suggestions with a large dose of tact works best.