if it is a question that can be answered at all.
They are arguing on another posting about wind resistance vs load/unload - I got lost in all of it - but makes me wonder - are there some trains that are harder to “handle” (engineer-wise) in operation than others? Are coal trains easier than freights when it comes to starting, stopping, slowing, moving at all…
I will leave it there for you to expound or ignore - your pleasure.
Mookie
Absolutely some trains are harder than others, the most common would be a train with empties toward the head end and loads on the rear end. Very hard to keep that rear end from not slammming you on the down side of a hill. probably the most frustrating train I have ever handled was an ethanlol train at 67 cars. Very short and very sloshy. Train constantly running in and out from the hills and the slosh of the liquid in the tankcars. These two trains would probably be the extreme. Coal trains and other loaded unit type trains grain, and such are heavy anywhere from 13000 tons up to 17000 tons that you have to be aware of your hills and valleys when stopping but actually tend to be fairly easy to run. They are generally long and tend to take care of themselves.
I hope this helps somewhat and questions please ask
In agree with youngengineer’s quite correct assessment.
The train I least liked was one that came from Itasca. It had a block of about 50 grain cars on the head end, a block of about 20 empty trilevels on the rear, and when I received the train, we were told to pick up a block of about 50 loaded lumber cars on the rear end. I tried to refuse to take the train without having it reblocked (put the trilevels on the rear end), but the dispatcher refused to allow the swap. I went on record as running the train under protest due to the high derailment risk.
Of course - it’s what I do best! When I see freight trains - having no clue if they are loaded or MT - is it common practice to run a mixture - or is it usually all loaded or all MTs? Guess looking for the norm.
Zardoz - if you had the entire load ahead of the MT tri-levels, is there ever a danger of “whipping” coming into play - any empty open-air cars at the very rear?
And I understand going on the record in the event of a derailment, but what does that involve?
Agree with the previous posters: I know a fellow who nearly lost his job on the railroad because he put the CEO’s business car on the end of a train that had 15 loaded coal cars on the front, 27 empty tank cars in the middle and then 16 loaded grain hoppers on the rear (then the business car). The CEO nearly lost all his fillings due to slack action!
Here’s a task for you - next time you’re out watching trains check out the spring packs between the wheels of the truck frame. a loaded car will compress the springs more (there will be more space between the top of the bolster and the top of the hole in the frame that the bolster and springs sit in, if that makes any sense). Sometimes you can tell.
Hugh- I am laughing because I usually see the freights with a coal train between us! I have figured out that this yard runs the most interesting trains between coal trains, just to frustrate me! [:D]
I have tried looking at the springs and while the Driver sometimes can tell, I haven’t figured it out yet. But I will take your suggestion and go look again - maybe it will work on coal train. At least they stop occasionally!
Mookie:
That CEO (on BN) would not allow any “special movements” so he often rode on the back of long freight trains. I remember the business car’s kitchen area on that particular move was a mess when they pulled into Birmingham, Ala.
“Whipping” I do not believe would be an issue. The problem is that if while running a train like I described, in the event of a major slack run-in, the (lumber) loads on the rear would push against the empty tri-levels which would in turn push against the huge block of (grain) loads on the head end. Even on straight track there is a danger of the tri-levels being “squirted” out from between the blocks of loads. If the run-in should happen to occur when the tri-levels are in a curve, a derailment is quite likely.
In addition, “string-lining” is also a major concern with a train like I described. That is where the head-end load’s slack runs out which pulls on the tri-levels which pull on the lumber loads on the rear. But because the lumber loads on the rear are so heavy, the two blocks of loads act like pivot points and try to pull the tri-levels off the track into a theoretical straight line between the two blocks of loads. This is more of a concern on curved track; the run-in
So I can assume tank cars are not built with baffles?
Since they normally run either empty or full, no. They may slosh a bit, but if you just have a smattering of tankers mixed in with other types of cars, that’s no big deal. It sounds like this was a case of all tankers, of a relatively thin liquid (vs oil) - no wonder they sloshed a lot.
This has been a sore point between some railroads,car owners/lessors, and shippers for some time. It flared up when cars not really suited to hauling ethanol were pressed into this service. Baffles add considerable extra cost to a tank car. According to the best available intelligence the extra cost is in the 10-15% range. It is anticipated that Ethanol tanks will be built with baffles for the reasons cited. The standards have yet to be determined.(The AAR has one idea, the ethanol/chemical industry another and the unions yet another!) Another example of your US government inaction![B)] (pun intended!!)
Baffles would (or should I say will) also make the car weigh more, which would limit the volume that could be loaded in them. There have been a lot of ethanol tank cars built in the past year or so; I doubt that they have the baffles.
To the original question–SJ, wind resistance is also an issue if you’re toting empties–even empty coal cars will drag you down a bit, but the worst offenders would be the bulkhead flat cars or Center-Beam cars.
Another question from the uninitiated, WHAT’S A BAFFLE?!
It is a divider installed in a tank to keep liquids in motion from sloshing out of control when the tank is not full. This could cause a tank car or vehicle (especially) from tipping over when the momentum of such a great weight shifting around willdly causes problems. The water compartments on most large tenders on steam locomotives were divided into sections by baffles – with small openings, usually near the bottom. If not, if the locomotive had to make a hard emergency stop, all of the the water remaining in the tender would slam toward the front and perhaps injure the crew or even derail the locomotive.
How I know is the 500 and 1000 gallon water tanks on fire engines I drove had baffles because coming back from a fire, the tank may not be 100 percent full and a quick turn or emergency stop could roll the truck.
Boy! I learned a lot! I was baffled, too - but now know what they are and how they work. File that away for future use.
Now - why would something so low profile as bulkhead flatcars and center beam cars (are these the spine cars?) cause wind resistance?
mookie
bulkhead flats and centerbeams are used to haul lumber and other items.
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now look at the diagram I made.if the car has a load the wind will flow over the back end of the car.however empty the wind will go down into the car and push against the back wall thus creating wind resistance.another thing with empty trailers they have been known to be blown off the old nyc line (now ns) near port clinton over the maumee bay bridge if it gets strong enough.
stay safe
joe
Madame La Mook,
The bidness trains I have seen on CSX were not mixed in with freight.
As far as train handling is concerned, I am not a pro. But I have spoken with some old heads who ran them. Apparently it is an art; senior engineers were usually selected for the job. The rail museum engineers doing their excursion runs say that it is a bear trying to get converted freight cars (used for open air seating) to act like passenger cars. Constant starts and stops… carrying a cargo that can complain loudly and have a bad effect on your career… plus all the attention from dispatchers, trainmasters, and other high mucketymucks… seems to me that running a passenger train would have been the toughest job.
Erik