I sure would like some feed back on what everyone things of this fairly new trend in manufacturers asking for advanced orders and then making you wait for ever. I understand that there is a lot more quality equipment on the market than there was twenty years ago and more competition for manufacturers. Has to be a better way than waiting up to a year or two to get your hands on a new piece of equipment
I think your question is germane to the thread about what has the greatest impact on the hobby. It supports those who contend that it is in decline. Or maybe not. Maybe the industry is just refining its business model about 20 years after most others saw the light.
I think this process, while not comfy for many of us, is the responsible thing to do from the point of view of fiscal soundness. Why waste items that languish unsold because there are insufficient buyers? Manufacture in numbers that are most likely to sell.
I can see both sides of the coin here. For instance why waste production on a product that will not turn a profit? On the other hand why list a product like BLI for instance then wait over two years to build it? If you list it as a production model then maybe give a date for order entries or give a estimate of a production date and not “TBD” I find that to be vague. The 20th century hudson is listed on some dealers sites as a release for 01-2009. Thats a long time to do a pre-order. It would be neat if there was a people vote for the next production model. Maybe once a year a people choice production of an engine? Maybe I am just silly.
I have been both a pre-order customer and a after “Arrival” customer.
I got out of the pre-orders. The last 5 engines I asked for took at least 1 year, 3 became TBD and two about 2 years too late. I finally canceled them all. I have one pending and one order coming and one on backorder. I expect to get all three eventually because there has been a steady flow of photos at every stage of the product from samples into production, firm dates, lots of information etc.
I have started to make firm orders based on Proto, Atlas, Athearn and Walthers because they announce something and then produce it within reason (Less than one year) and somewhat on time. Everyone else gets no pre-orders and if thier products arrive? Great! If it shows up later on Ebay or mail order? Great! If not? No problem.
If that makes the pre-order more difficult for those manufactors who expect firm orders before sending a announced engine to production? Tough.
Pre-ordering is nice but not necessary in the hobby. That limited run, made to order, get yours now before it all gone etc… yea right.
What ultimately got me out of the pre-ordering is the simple neglect of certain manufactors in maintaining updated information, images and specific tidbits about the product. Some websites have announce items 2+ years ago and still have not recieved ANY updates at all; one in particular is really bad about this.
So, when I go into a hobby shop; the products that are already in production or already availible gets first consideration.
It is my opinion that the announcements and pre-orders has been turned into a massive and somewhat frankenstien form of “Fishing” by companies seeking instant and gratifying returns on thier investment money.
So if choo choo gets announced? Great! Let’s see the sample photos, paint schemes, firm delivery dates (THAT ARE NOT TBD or TBA or anything similar) and progressively more precise information over time about the features of that model. Over time
Although The Coach Yard’s cars are magnificent, and possibly worth the wait, but boy is there ever a wait. I reserved a business car 2 years ago, and it looks like I may finally get it next year. I suppose with $500 passenger cars, they definately want to make sure they don’t end up with any sitting in the “warehouse”. I asked about the project about 5 months ago, and they said all the planning was done, but they were not going to send anything to Korea until they had more pre-orders.
With brass though, I guess the numbers all the way around are different than what they are in plastic. I would love to know what their production cost is on a car that is probably going to cost me around $450. I had to pre-order the car without even knowing what the price is going to be, because appearantly they don’t even know what they are going to charge until very late in the game. I guess the builder gives them the numbers when they recieve the order and specs from the importer.
I’ve already got my 2086 Yugo ordered and paid for; don’t wait until the last minute!!!
I can relate a horror story of what happens when you put a down payment with a balance due on an item and the manufacturer goes belly up and the court compells you to pay that balance due so they can satisfy claims for wages.
I never do any advanced orders or even worse advanced payments.
Someone running a business has to deal with his business risks. If he can not do that he should not run a business. I think that is fundamental to all kind of business.
ps. The only exception is the “business” run by the goverment. In that case the full risk is at the client side…
I’ve never seen them before! Where can I see costs and where to get them. I couldn’t help seeing that they where going to release the Capitol Limited. I love that train.
But I couldn’t see a price.
Magnus
I don’t mind advance orders if they are upfront with that it is only really a poll.
So make a survey on the manufacturer site and ask people to say if they want them or not. I know people will answer yes and then don’t get them but that seems to be the case no anyways. People drop out after waiting two years now and is left with a feeling of being cheated, perhaps one didn’t by the engine that was on sale because he had already pre ordered the one that never got produced.
Or alternatively, set a date, set it in stone, any delays that are caused by earth quakes and sinking ships excluded the delivery will be made within the set time frame. Ask me to put say 20% down and I’ll go for it. If they fail producing it on time, give me back my cash and let me decide if I still want it, if I drop out you keep my cash.
That way both get some security, because I can understand the risk a small company is running when they put out a new model. Another company might get there before them or it might be a dud.
Magnus
I will not preorder and have no sympathy for manfacturers who play this game. They can either do their marketing research or go under for making bad business decisions but either way they are not going to do it while holding some of my money. In a capitalist economy the only right that a business has is to go bankrupt. I suspect that if eveyone refused to preorder, the practice would end. Remember, during the preorder period your money is either collecting interest for them or it has been spent and is nothing more than an entry in an electronic ledger.
I have pre-ordered twice. In both cases it was for items I really wanted and I knew they would be very small production runs and there was also a discount for preordering/prepayment. While they took about 6 months longer than expected, both pre-orders came through just fine. Otherwise I prefer to wait until I can actually see it and buy it on the spot.
Enjoy
Paul
I will not preorder freight cars unless I believe the road name will be a fast seller.As far as locomotives I don’t have any problems finding the ones I want on line even from Atlas as most on line hobby shops order locomotives for stock.
Well said. The whole pre-order paradigm is just a way out of spending time and money on market research while minimizing risk.
I agree…I flat refuse to make a deposit for any freight car road name I may preorder…Thankfully the on line shops I deal with does not require a deposit like some brick and mortar shops.I know of one LHS that wanted 50% down…
I hate having to put a deposit down on a pre-order. I figure that if I’m a well enough respected customer (I bought stuff from them before) then that should be good enough to reserve a loco or piece of rolling stock. I model the Ontario Northland and almost all of the stuff you see is done in small quantities so if I don’t pay up front then I miss out. I hate being held for ransom!!!
My LHS requires 50% down on orders greater than 50$ which is reasonable. But I only order special items that are in stock at Walthers,and they will honor all Walther’s sale prices. While I might be able to get a better discount on-line, I do want to maintain a relationship with the brick and mortar folks and it has already paid off in a coupleof bennies. TA462, I really sympathize with your predicament.
You can try The Coach Yard’s site… http://www.thecoachyard.com/ , and they have a dealers list. I would also try a dealer like Uncle Dave’s Brass Trains. They have always seemed to have really good prices on their brass… http://www.uncledavesbrass.com/ . I have purchased things from Uncle Dave’s and their service is pretty good, and they are easy to get in contact with.
Bear,I fully understand what you are saying…I would shop more at the 2 LHS if they would cut some slack with a small 10% discount…Neither shop will regardless how long you been a customer or how much you have spent in their shops…
It is instructive to see the tone of the posts in this thread versus a somewhat similiar thread that unfolded this week in the Atlas HO forum.
There seem to be a lot of posters that are very unhappy with the “Build to Order” model that the model railroad industry has taken to. On the MR General Discussion forum those posters appear to be in the majority, over in the Atlas HO forum the split appeared to be closer to even and there appear to be passionate believers on both sides of the issue.
I have my doubts that the “Build to Order” model will prove viable in the long run in the Model Railroad Hobby. If it prevails long enough I think we will see the Hobby begin to shrink more & faster than it already has.
For those of you that visit the Atlas Forums you may want to lookup the thread I mentioned, search for “PWRS” as the thread started with a posting from PWRS’ spokesman.
Mark Gosdin
Thanks csmith9474 .
Magnus