I’m a new member here and this is my first post. I"ve been looking and reading for the last few months trying to figure out the best DCC system for my future planned large layout and me. I went to open houses of the Piedmont model rr club and talked to owners too. The choise was Digitrax. I read a little online too and then ordered a DCS 200, a DT 400-R and a UR-91 from my LHS, Kennesaw Trains.
The night before I was going to pick up the system I found and read this business about ‘plugging in’. I shreeked to myself, ‘What have I done!!!’. I want a radio controlled system not a semi radio controlled system. (But I just read that a duplex system is in the works. Should I wait for it?)
What I think is important to me and what I dream of is a system that I can look over the layout with it’s power on, spy a loco sitting somewhere, type in it’s number on it’s side and choose it on my radio thing and then move it out across the layout. While that one is chugging along I select a second and maybe a third to slowly transverse the layout. Granted there are other setups I’d like to have involved too like train sensing so that any switches that are thrown in the wrong direction for any of these locos will be corrected automatically by the PC tied in with all this.
That’s the idea but the basic systems to start with look very complicated. The Digitrax manual makes my head swim it seems. The concept looks okay but the nuts and bolts look daunting.
The LHS said I could bring the Digitrax back for store credit which is fine. But I’m back to square one. The DCE web site is goofy and really doesn’t explain their radio cab much at all. It does say it is full duplex which compared to the Digitrax 400R beng single duplex says why that one needs plugged in. The DCE display is in “plain english” while the 400R has codes and symbols to m
All that ‘simplex’ means is that you have to plug in the throttle to program or aquire the engines. Once you have the train, you can operate ‘wireless’. I still have 4 UP5 panels around the layout to ‘plug in’ throttles(and leave them hanging by their short cable). Digitrax will be releasing ‘Full Duplex’ throttles in the near future, and a ‘factory’ upgrade should be available to convert older DT400R throttles.
The NCE system is a little more user friendly with the text on the ‘Hammerhead’ throttles, but the Digitrax DT400 throttles are easy to use. Face it, there is going to be a ‘learning curve’ with any high-end DCC system. You are going to get stuck at times with system or MU fueatures. Download/print both the Digitrax & NCE manuals - I think you will have an equal amount of ‘head swimming’. Sort of like using the computer track planning software - It takes some getting used to!
As far as the ‘interference’ - Both Digitrax and NCE radio systems may be affected by cell phone traffic at train shows or at home. Digitrax wireless can have seperate ‘channels’ so clubs at train shows do not step on each other - Not sure if NCE has a similar feature.
As for your buying decision, what do other individuals or clubs in your area use for DCC? Many times that and how the throttle ‘feels’ in your had contribute to the buying decision.
As far as layout controls (signalling, block detection, auto turnout control, etc) Digitrax has the most options. They have signalling, block detection, turnout control and routing. The beauty of digitrax is all the components hook up to Loconet. Loconet allows you to monitor all the accesories on the layout (especially if you get the PR3 or Locobuffer USB). You can then use a computer to dispatch, route trains, throw signals and so on.
It does bother me that digitrax doesn’t have a fully duplex system but they are in the final phases before full scale production (beta testing was done recently). I will be getting a radio system once the full duplex has been released.
I do enjoy my computer interface which is invaluable. I program my locomotives almost exclusively on the computer now.
The club i belong to uses Lenz. The radio throttles we use there are the Easy DCC throttles and I really like those throttles.The other club I belong to uses digitrax as well. We use the simplex radio throttles as well at tethered throttles and it all seems to work decently well.
I have only used NCE a few times. The menus are clearer that the Digitrax menus but I do not like the size of the throttles. The hammerheads are heavy and holding such a throttle for an operating session would be enjoyable.I don’t know too much about their accesories
I have not been able to try any of them. I can’t and don’t get out of the house much. Going to one of the monthly meetings over in Decater, GA, similiar to you going to Oconomowac from Racine, is a big deal cause I can’t drive that far. Would need some help. This all may sound like excuses but that’s what I have been given. Was hoping a choise of wants vs. availables would narrow it down and it has really to two for the most part. It’s just the radio function to be specific. I want full feature through the transmitter. NCE seems to have it now but can only recall two locos if I understand it correctly, or is it six? The Digitrax can recall or store 100+ but the direction of the consist meaning the lead loco can be a problem? I read that whole thread of “Tell me what you don’t like about your DCC system”. Still absorbing. One solution for me may be to take the 400R and the UR 91 back for credit and get a tethered cab for now. Buy the new duplex Digitrax radio controller and the UR92 when they come out. Or still chuck it all for a DCE model.
I only have 3 BLI Blueline locos and 3 or 4 Bachmann ‘DCC On Board’ locos. Have about another 15 old DC models including 4 Athearn DD 40s with 2 motors in 3 of them. I look forward to consisting 2 or 3 of them to haul around 30 or more of the hoppers I have here. The layout planned is going to be maybe 40 or 45 feet on one leg so trains can get stretched out as they move along. So in my basement there is no chance of filling up a Digitrax attached loco list. But with 16 ?? in DCE it may get full so there would be no instant callup?
How soon do you plan to put this DCC system into use?
To be honest, based on the presentations made last summer at the NMRA convention and subsequent reports on the web, I am a bit surprised that the Digitrax Duplex has not been released yet. It has to be very imminent? I for one am holding out waiting for it to arrive, rather than adding a UR91 to my existing Digitrax layout. I have a DT400 and intend to send it in for the Duplex wireless upgrade when it is available.
Based on your description of how you want to operate your layout, I think you will really like the dual throttle control of the DT400. I love to run a train on my main line while shuttling around in the yard with a switcher. Going from knob to knob on the throttle makes this so easy and intuitive to do.
Having said that, I think you would be happy with either system, NCE or Digitrax.
I have never understood the concern about pluggung in to do certain things with Digitrax simplex radio. I plug mine in, acquire the locos, unplug, and run. I I need to program on the main, I would much rather be plugged in to be sure that the message is getting through to the command station.
NCE radio is a frequency hog. Using a polled system, it can really make life tough for anything else on 900mhz.
For what it’s worth, I took this photo of a Digitrax UR92 duplex radio unit last summer. It was mounted on my skyboard at the Derby City Express.
The NCE PowerPro system has a cab (or handset) that has a recall stack that comes with a default setting of two locomotives, but can be programmed to accept up to six. What this means is that the cab has the capability of “remembering” the last six locomotives you operated if you want it to. All this means is that you can toggle back and forth between six different engines without having to press the “select loco” button and entering a locomotive number every time, at least for the first six engines. If you have another engine that you want to run beyond the six that are in the recall stack, you scroll through the recall stack until you get to a locomotive that you are done with. At that point you go through the select locomotive process and the selected locomotive address will overwrite the address that had been previously selected. The remaining five locomotive numbers will still be remembered by the handset. Note that the fact that the recall stack is limited to six numbers (or two if you are talking about the starter PowerCab system) does not in any way limit the number of engines you want to run, at least until you try to run (I believe) 256 at one time.
I am not that familiar with the Digitrax handsets, but as far as I know they do not have any recall stack. Everytime I’ve seen someone use one of them, they enter one engine number on one side of the throttle and another on the other side. So they can operate two engines at one time, but if they want to to operate another engine, they have to dump one of the ones they have. If they have some newer handset that does something differently, someone please correct me.
I have read on this forum about some complaints concerning the six locomotive recall stack limitation, and quite frankly don’t know what the complaints are about. Po
Digitrax Zephyr does not have a recall stack. DT400 throttle; however, has a 4, 8, or 16 address recall stack. 4 is the default. 8 and 16 are built in options. The recall stack is available to both throttle knobs. The recall stack is a function of the DT400 throttle so it will work on any Digitrax system including Zephyr.
With DT400 for “go” we turn the throttle knob CW or CCW or press the + key to speed up and the - key to slow down. User’s choice
For direction there’s the direction buttons with an arrow pointing
Also, there really aren’t many ‘symbols’ on the DT400 vs the PH Pro - so it says Loco instead of spelling out Locomotive or something. And it uses arrow pointing to the front or rear of a little picture of a locomotive instead of the words FWD and REV for forward and reverse. Both show numbers for which function(s) are active. The one extra symbol on the DT400 is the ‘smoke’ icon coming from the littl elocomotive picture to indicate which one you have active (since the DT400 can simultaneously control two locos - not via the recall stack, actually have two different addressee active at the same time).
Plus, Digitrax also makes ‘engineer’ throttles that don;t have all the buttons of the DT400. You don’t have to have a DT400 just to run trains. The smaller and less expensive UT4 can select and run any train, and control all the functions.You only need the DT400 to program or make/break consists - both of which can be done via a computer with free JMRI software as well, on either system. There are many advantages to using JMRI to program, not the least of which is it saves all your settings in a database so you can easily fix up a loco that ‘loses its mind’ or someoen else mistakenly programs, plus it displays the various settings in plain English, not in lookup tables of numbers.
Add also the advantage of Loconet. Want detection and signals? There are products from Digitrax AND third parties that plug right into the Loconet. No additional cabling for the signal system. You can easily build control panels all along the layout and have them connect to the layout and each other by one simple RJ12 cable - the Loconet. All the wiring from the pushbuttons and toggles is confined right to the panel and not all underneath the layout. Push a turnout pushbutton and the signal travels via the Loconet to activate a stationary decoder. Plus if you want to throw a CTC panel in the mix, you can do so either with free JMRI or commercial software like RR & Company, and be sure that the indications will always be correct - since there is only one command bus with Digitrax, a computer interfaced to it ‘sees’ everything - so if someone operates a turnout from their throttle, it WILL show on the panel - even without extra contacts wired for feedback. With the other systems, those commands are not seen by the computer interface.
Go to the Piedmont Division website (http://piedmont-div.org) and look at one of the links for either member aid, or division officers, and call or email one of them. Ask them to put you in contact with someone in your area - I’m sure one of our many members from Cobb County would be glad to help you get to meetings. Additionally, several of our members are DCC dealers and can answer almost any question you might have. Last month’s clinic at the meeting was on choosing a DCC system!
As far as which system is better for you, it truly is a matter of opinion - yours!
I have one question for you, though. What do you plan to run that requires an 8 amp system? Do you have many locomotives, or are you modeling in a larger scale like O or G?
I don’t yet have a system, but I’ve been studying the various systems since I first heard a sound-equipped diesel sitting on a siding idling, and realized what a tremendous boost to realism it was! It’s getting close to time to choose. Earlier this month was my first opportunity to use the NCE system, which I have been gravitating towards, and found it to be easy enough to use. But I’ve had several opportunities to run on Digitrax layouts over the past year, and it’s easy to use, too. Both systems, though, had all been programmed by the layout owners, so I can’t say which is better from the programming standpoint. With either system, though, I’d use DecoderPro, so I don’t see setup as a huge problem. In the North Georgia area the preponderance of layouts use Digitrax, mostly because Digitrax was from North Georgia until late last year. If you plan to have lots of visiting operators, consider this: if you have a Digitrax system, virtually everyone around here has his own Digitrax throttle. If you have another system, YOU will have to supply the throttles. That said, those members of my own operating group who don’t yet have a DCC system are cons
I have had a Digitrax Super Chief (radio) system for ten years. My system came with a DT-100R throttle which still works great. I am waiting for the new Digitrax duplex raidio throttles, however this will be an add on to my existing system. I will continue to use my simplex radio throttles. I have two DT-100R, two DT-300R and a DT-400R.
I am building a large basement layout and have purchased additional DB150 boosters on eBay to expand my system.
What ever DCC system you get, a computer interface is very important. Using Decoder Pro (free software) makes programing a snap.
I don’t believe that I made any statement trying to “shoot down” any particular system. As a matter of fact, I believe that I said that I didn’t know exactly what the recall stack capability the D handsets had and only reported what I had observed. I also asked to be corrected. So thank you for pointing out what the D system is capable of.
I notice that no one has yet chimed in as to what real purpose the actual recall stack capability serves. Still waiting for a comment on that.
Regarding the method of MUing locomotives, I am entitled to my opinion. What I said was that in my opinion one system’s method of doing this was easier than the other. If you read carefully you’ll notice that I didn’t specify which system was which. What I did suggest was that the OP get out there and try the different systems to see which method he preferred. And just because I personally don’t own one of the systems does not mean I’m not capable of observing what’s going on. The owner of that large railroad that I’m allowed to operate on uses one of the systems and has a hostler position that he’s reluctant to fill because everytime someone is assigned there most of the consists get screwed up. Many of the operators he has bring their own handsets and still manage to mess up the consisting process. If it were as easy as the owners on this forum purport, you’d think there wouldn’t be a problem.
The bottom line on all of this is different strokes for different folks. The only way the OP is going to be happy is if he gets out and tries the different systems to see what he likes or dislikes.
A recall stack contains the last X number of locomotives you have selected. Thus you can quickly scroll back to any one of them and reselect them without having to punch in their number again. Also, with Digitrax, as you scroll back through the recall list it shows you the speed, direction and status of each locomotive on the list. Think of the recall list like a favorites listing.
Thank you for all the info and honest, inciteful opinions posted so far.
The reason I got the 8 amp Super Chief was the I guess bucolic belief that the bigger the better. Pretty much the same reason why 32 years ago I bought a '71 Trans-Am because they had the torque monster 455 CID engine churning out 500 ft/lbs of torque. I also had a '68 SS 396 Chevelle convertible at the same time and it had a different way it acted as compared to the other. I could spin stories abut how each acted at triple digit speeds but that’s way off topic. Lord, I really miss that Chevelle badly.
I love the idea that Loconet and another free program can program the locos AND keep a readable database showing what all the CVs for each loco are set to. The 3 BLIs I have I’ve been writing the CV changes on slips of paper.
I also love the idea that Loconet can run signaling and with sensors sense who is where with the right trains getting a green while the other gets a red. Can Loconet stop the train getting the red signal and have it wait till the first one passes? And control the switches to make this come to pass all at the same time I’m moving cars around in one of the 3 planned freight yards or maybe the staging yard?
Could Loconet control traffic on streets too? Granted prototype streets do not usually have slots running down the center of the lanes but having a road or two making a circuitous route around the layout add some additional action? I think the more stuff moving around seemingly on its own the better. A traffic light goes red and an HO car gets its power cut at the stop line only to get it restored and the car (hopefully) move out with a green light and the power restored. Could Loconet control more than just railroad sensors and signals but also control similar sensors and reacting to that input and cut and restore the power to the cars and perhaps the traffic light too? If Loconet can do the
Well Loconet can’t do all that by itself - you need detectors, and the signals, and something to control it all - JMRI is free, RR & Company is easier to set up the automation stuff but it’s not cheap. Controllign slot cars is possible with DCC, you just need a decoder in each car… hmm… Anyway, it’s not Loconet that makes this all possible - it’s just that IF you do it all the bits and pieces that make it actually work can connect together via Loconet - you don’t need to hook up multiple control systems.
The DT400 can control 2 locomotives (or consists) at the same time, the recall stack isn’t per knob, it’s for the throttle as a whole, so either knob can recall any of the last 16 locos you ran. For myself, a 16 loco recall stack is kind of pointles - I’m pretty sure I cn type in the 4 digits (and in my case - most of the lcocomotives actually only have 3 digit numbers) faster than I can scroll through a choice of 16 only to find I didn;t recently run the one I’m trying to select. I think I pulled up the recall stack once or twice out of curiousity to see how it worked - normally I just key in the digits and go.
Depending on how big your layout is and how many people might be runnign it, you might be better off with 2 5 amp boosters and making at least 2 power districts out of it rather than one monster 8 amp. The issue of an input power supply also comes up with 8 amp boosters - you need a real 8 amp power supply to run it, Digitrax doesn;t have one, and the MF615 is NOT an 8 amp power supply no matter what Tony says.
