Join the discussion on the following article:
Agency approves $1.75 billion in bonds for All Aboard Florida
This is great but shouldn’t Amtrak move its Florida trains into the proposed Miami station along with rerouting them over the FEC mainline? Another example of the Boardman administration’s lack of vision. Amtrak needs a CEO with the passion and vision that Herb Kelleher brought to Southwest Airlines.
One can only shake their head in wonder at the hysteria and uninformed blathering of all the NIMBY’s and naysayers swirling around this project!
This is great news.
@JOHN D HEFFNER - There’s a few issues with that, especially concerning capacity and the route north of Cocoa/Orlando. Still, once the upgrades are done, the service is running, and the dust as settled, they can look into it.
Amtrak has expressed support for running over the FEC before, and the Amtrak FEC Corridor Project was an active thing until the announcement of AAF. The problem is nobody has stepped up with funding for it. The problem is not Boardman.
A downtown Miami station would be great for Amtrak, but the plans are to use the new station at the airport although there have been a few bumps in the road (i.e., Amtrak trains too long for the platforms blocking road crossings).
Here there are direct and easy connections to major flights, Metrorail (rapid transit service to downtown), Tri-Rail (commuter rail) and car rental companies.
This new airport station will be a great improvement over the existing Amtrak station which is in the middle of nowhere.
Yes, as Mr. Andre alludes, the connections that are or will be in place to allow Tri Rail commuter trains to access downtown Miami would also allow Amtrak trains on the current CSX routing to Miami to terminate there if platform and possibly other capacity constraints are eliminated.
NRPC will not enter a station they do not control. It’s their way.
Hmmm. Dan, I was thinking that I didn’t agree with you and searched my head for contrary examples and didn’t find any. For example Amtrak skips a number of really significant commuter stops it operates through. Riverside, California, for example. Or Minneapolis. (there are many others). In contrast VIA rail canada has extended corridor services to GOTransit stations around Toronto.
@christophe and daniel
And this is why AAF purposefully excluded any interface with Amtrak from the very beginning. In order to get out from under STB oversight, AAF committed to not sharing or collaborating with Amtrak with interline ticketing or sharing stations.
It was probably a wise move as since then Joe “nothing else counts” Boardman has publicly denigrated AAF by being quoted as saying that AAF’s passenger projections were a fantasy. I am sure that the executives with FECI and AAF have remembered that.
I say let AAF take over Florida passenger rail operations when they expand to Tampa and Jacksonville and Amtrak be damned! Amtrak has cut service to Florida over the past 20 years and doesn’t deserve to benefit from private investment from AAF.
@DANIEL CARLETON - Amtrak will be using MIC to serve Miami in 2016. MIC is not an Amtrak controlled station.
I suspect the reason Amtrak owns most of its stations is because it inherited them from its members. It’s understandable that in many cases that it would want to keep control rather than hand it to a transit agency, but it doesn’t seem to be a hard and fast rule.
@BRIAN THORNILEY - as a resident of the Treasure Coast (idiot NIMBY central) I desperately hope that AAF is not made up of people who harbor grudges. I suspect they, in any case, can see the difference between someone being skeptical (as Boardman was), and someone denigrating them. Half the industry is skeptical of AAF, that doesn’t mean they don’t want it to succeed or bare it ill will.
@Paul
I was being somewhat sarcastic, however as you bring up the difference between being skeptical and denigrating, I really wouldn’t want to comment here further on the general Treasure Coast attitude towards AAF.
The Treasure Coast area of Florida (disclosure, I live near Tampa) has the capability of costing AAF/FECI around $300-400 million dollars. I really can’t see AAF not remembering that if the lawsuits go forward. The Treasure Coast could have taken an alternative path, one of working with AAF, instead of total opposition to the project. As has been stated elsewhere, the 3 counties of the TC make up 3-4% of the population of Florida. Other areas such as Tampa Bay and Jacksonville would fight for the chance to have AAF come through town that the TC has by luck of location. I do know for a fact that AAF and FDOT are working together at this time to ensure that the I-4 median is available in the future for an extension of AAF to Tampa.
I’m not in the loop to know what the industry in general thinks of AAF. However, having lived in Tampa for almost 20 years I do know what Amtrak thinks of us here. Tampa has lost 2/3’s of the daily trains it had 15 years ago. So much for Amtrak.
I do see Brevard getting a station in a few years after start up. That county has worked with AAF and supported their efforts at financing though the FDFC and PABs. Unfortunately for you, I don’t hold out much hope for a station stop anytime soon on the TC.
@BRIAN THORNILEY - Oh don’t get me wrong. I wouldn’t blame AAF for holding a grudge against the Treasure Coast. I just hope desperately that they won’t.
The minority that’s taken control of the local politicians and media here is doing immense damage, not just to AAF but to the counties here too. Every county here was “on board” with getting passenger rail up and running (and even willing to subsidize Amtrak to get it, with Stuart actually about to break ground on a station around five years ago which they had to abort because their grant application made some major errors) until AAF was announced. Then a combination of there being no TC stations in the initial phase (because every rail system needs to be complete on day #1, right? sigh) and the anger of the anti-train mobs swung the local politicians 180 degrees.
To be fair, AAF has taken little serious action to challenge these idiots publicly, allowing them free rein to make ludicrous allegations and the political atmosphere toxic. What action they had taken has been usually inadequate and late, challenging conspiracy theories with incomprehensible corporate-speak and organizing debates long after the horse has left the barn.
The one positive I guess is that AAF now has some idea of what will be necessary to get their line up from Cocoa to Jacksonville when the time comes. I would strongly advise them to promise connectivity to each of the counties from the start, even if it’s just a DMU service with flag stops. That’ll ensure the politicians are on board and there’s some local excitement to give the politicians cover. The NIMBYs will attack anyway, but they won’t get as far without local political support.
We’ll see I guess.
As far as Amtrak goes, the truth is it serves more of Florida than it should, which means it ends up cutting more services because they’re unsustainable. Amtrak should be running multi-state intercity expresses, minimizing the numb
@Paul
I do agree with you that AAF was slow to respond to the lies and misinformation campaign. They have gotten better in the last year or so, but by that time it was too late.
But the opponents are shooting themselves in the foot - good example is Wednesday’s FDFC meeting where Martin county Commissioner Anne Scott accused the board members of being corrupt to their face! Same for Indian River County commissioner Bob Solari. Do you think their actions helped their cause? Not a chance! I would love to hear what their legal counsel told them after their performances… LOL
As far as Amtrak and Florida service, please read Paul Druce’s blog from two years ago:
http://reasonrail.blogspot.com/2013/12/silver-service-and-florida-intrastate.html
He makes some valid points using NARP ridership data about how he thinks Florida is actually underserved.
As far as the AAF model being copied elsewhere, I don’t see it happening up north. Most of the major cities in the Midwest/Northeast are not growing fast enough to justify the private investment in real estate that you see in South Florida. Texas, parts of GA, CA, and the Carolinas would potentially work IMO.
The CSX line between Orlando and Tampa is too slow and would need significant rebuilding to compete with driving. Even AAF using the I-4 median and operating at 125mph would be at a disadvantage for trips to certain parts of the Orlando area far from the airport. Sunrail would have to be built to the airport and expand service greatly to enable AAF to be useful for those trips. I can see AAF having competitive service from Tampa to South Florida.
@Brian - Thanks for the link. That makes me even more inclined to think Amtrak is being misused here, and largely for political reasons. Amtrak is never going to be capable - without massive external (Federal? State?) investment - of running the frequent intrastate services that Druce’s report suggests Florida actually requires. At the same time, the Silver service is objectively less useful for its intended purpose because of the ridiculous number of intrastate stops in the middle of nowhere both trains execute. Rather than get useful intrastate connectivity and useful interstate transportation, we get a single service that does a half donkeyed job of both, useful only to people who luck out in terms of not being picky about the times and timings involved.
Amtrak should stay out of that market. The State, if it wants passenger trains that link small cities, should be providing that function. Amtrak will always be a poor way to provide it, and will damage its own services by doing so.
What I hope is AAF can change this directly and indirectly. Directly by providing new and upgraded passenger corridors that the State can exploit for more Tri-Rail type systems. Indirectly by encouraging other railroads to do the same.
Re: the CSX corridor between Tampa and Orlando, I agree it’ll need upgrades, but is there any reason to think it’ll need dramatically more of an overhaul than the FEC lines have needed? I ask, because the cost of building a new RoW, such as the I-4 proposal, is generally absurdly high. It was $3B when FLHSR was being discussed, just to join these cities. By comparison, the AAF proposal, which includes significant property development, is a mere $2.5B, for a much longer stretch of track.
It’s hard to believe that double or triple tracking the existing CSX RoW and upgrading the track to get it to 90 or 110mph standards would cost more than a completely new system, even if the new system would allow, in theory, 125mph operation.
I thi
@Paul
I agree with your statements about Amtrak. It has always been a political entity and I don’t see much changing for it here in Florida. Unless FL suddenly elects a majority of politicians who want investment in infrastructure, the chance of state funding of new Amtrak service is very low.
AAF will use the I-4 median if they choose to extend their line to Tampa. I am aware that FDOT and AAF have been coordinating over the last 2-3 years to ensure that the rail transit envelop (a 40ft wide strip of land) in the median of I-4 remains in place. FDOT has current and future projects a planned for I-4 that are being designed to keep the median available.
I could see Florida assisting AAF expanding to Tampa a by doing certain construction work that will allow AAF to build the route cheaper. FDOT is replacing an old bridge over I-4 in Polk county that is in the way in the median.
I came up with a very rough estimate of costs to build a primarily single track railroad between downtown Tampa and the Orlando airport using the same route as the HSR project.
88 miles of new route, including:
88 miles of new roadbed and track $123M
50 miles of single track embankment $85M
2 - 10 mile long passing sections $30M
70 miles of concrete highway barriers on both sides. $140M
88 miles of PTC. $18M
6 #33 turnouts $4.2M
6 areas of signalization work at the new turnouts $3M
10 miles of single track approach embankments $270M
30 new bridges over roads $120M
2 miles of high double track bridges $148M
Land/ROW lease from CFX and FDOT so no upfront cost
Purchase land in Orlando and Tampa areas for new route $200M
Soft costs (design, engineering, and project management,etc…) @ 24% of $941 million construction (not including land) total: $226M
Grand Total: $1.37B
Add a 25% markup and you get $1.7B in costs which seems reasonable. No new train sets would be needed to cover the same sche
While Jacksonville has the benefit of being on the FEC ROW on the north end, they have several demerits working against them in any future AAF expansion.
Poor connectivity in the metro area. New leadership at JTA is changing that, but AAF isn’t going to waste the dollars coming where people can’t get to the darn station.
Speaking of stations, Jacksonville is fortunate they still have their original, but it sits in the middle of the urban desert called LaVilla. JTA has really fumbled the ball in trying to get multi-modal in there. I would think AAF would love to terminate at JUS, but they will gladly build an air rights station at Bowden Yard if COJ/JTA can’t (if ever) get their act together.
The only 2 stations between OIA and JAX I could ever foresee is Daytona Beach & St Augustine. JTA/FDOT has been looking at some form of commuter rail between Jax and St Augustine and it is still in the 2040 TPO plan. How that will play out relative to AAF is a wild card.
While AAF needs positive cash flow before jumping on any expansion, it will be interesting how the new Jacksonville mayor and City Council lay the foundations over the next 8 years to facilitate it.
Interesting ideas and would love to see them completed. IMHO nevertheless if this is left to Florida and not the feds (and that’s most likely what it will take to accomplish it) whatever involvement is required by the state, even though spearheaded by a private corporation, unless Floridians start reelecting Democratic legislatures and governors, there will be blocked intersections ahead at every turn. Better to have cooperation on your side.
Brent Hanlon’s comment is such a great example of NIMBY hype, hysteria, and misinformation: “Windfall” is an unexpected profit; this is not a profit, but will provide funding necessary to enable this project to go forward. Which, hopefully, will result in operating profits for AAF, that of course will be down the road.
The bonds will be tax-free to the investors, they are not a tax-free “gift” to AAF. Obviously this is a feature to sweeten the pie for those willing to have a stake in this venture. So there won’t be any benefit of tax revenue to the state of Florida from the bond sales? Either Florida’s politicians feel that they don’t need such revenue; or, if they are as creative as the politicians up here in Connecticut, they will find other gimmicks to get it …