Very good analysis here, good read…especially about the part on not trusting what the host railroad says it will cost them.
http://www.allaboardmn.org/?m=201601
Finally a rail passenger advocacy group that cuts through the BS from both the Railroads and Railfan community and gets down to business.
Some forward-looking thinking, breaking from the usual “let’s do X because we’ve always done so.” You can really see that in dropping some traditional stops that generate few riders but consume a lot of time. Set the SPUD-CHI goal at 400 minutes.
I can appreciate that they want to eliminate lightly used stops. However, when MDOT said it would make all the stops of the Empire Builder, those towns will not rereat. They would have to show that cost savings would outweigh the political fallout from cancelling those stops.
Adding more frequency sounds good, but they lost me at the overnight trip.
How much fallout is there from towns with populations totaling <18,000 and light boardings for all three (Columbus, the Dells and Portage)? Choose one to keep. Tomah has 9,000 and Red Wing 16,000. Maybe keep Red Wing, though boardings are only 10,000.
I have ridden the route only like 2-3 times and that was before 2000. This external group is attempt to influence MDOT’s thinking and hopefully WisDOT as well.
What I find encouraging is…
They recognize the utility of an overnight train…yaaay!
They recognize that Amtrak stoping 2-3 times at one stop because of length of train at a short platform stop (Columbus) is both stupid and time wasteful. You know Amtrak Management here should ask Columbus to pay for an extended platform or yank the stop…really that is what should happen here.
They recognize these smaller stops slow the train for everyone else but add little in the way of revenue or potential growth.
They recognize that the one additional train is part of a broader plan to add 2-3 more trains, so they want a realignment with the first one.
They are actually looking at population density and % of metro market served (this is why they want to extend to MSP and why they want a West Milwaukee station in Pewaukee, WI). I had not realized that Amtrak by only stopping in St. Paul is really only serving 33% of the Twin Cities market.
They aren’t just swallowing the Class I railroad cost projections for the additional service, they are digging a little deeper on them (for once). I suspected all along that some of these were overly inflated. Same with the Amtrak cost projections. For example they are correct to conclude that $8 million for a ne
As far as equipment goes isn’t there a company that owns a fleet of ex-SF hi-level coaches? IIRC they were one of the bidders to run the HOOSIER STATE. If this company does exist how many cars do they have and where are they stored?
As far as rehabbed equipment goes, I recall CMStPnP posting pictures of ex-MILW passenger equipment (made in their own shops) sitting somewhere in Arkansas at a dealer.
[quote user=“CMStPnP”]
MidlandMike
I can appreciate that they want to eliminate lightly used stops. However, when MDOT said it would make all the stops of the Empire Builder, those towns will not rereat. They would have to show that cost savings would outweigh the political fallout from cancelling those stops.
Adding more frequency sounds good, but they lost me at the overnight trip.
I have ridden the route only like 2-3 times and that was before 2000. This external group is attempt to influence MDOT’s thinking and hopefully WisDOT as well.
What I find encouraging is…
They recognize the utility of an overnight train…yaaay!
They recognize that Amtrak stoping 2-3 times at one stop because of length of train at a short platform stop (Columbus) is both stupid and time wasteful. You know Amtrak Management here should ask Columbus to pay for an extended platform or yank the stop…really that is what should happen here.
They recognize these smaller stops slow the train for everyone else but add little in the way of revenue or potential growth.
They recognize that the one additional train is part of a broader plan to add 2-3 more trains, so they want a realignment with the first one.
They are actually looking at population density and % of metro market served (this is why they want to extend to MSP and why they want a West Milwaukee station in Pewaukee, WI). I had not realized that Amtrak by only stopping in St. Paul is really only serving 33% of the Twin Cities market.
They aren’t just swallowing the Class I railroad cost projections for the additional service, they are digging a little
Wow, thats pretty negative…
I don’t look at the world that way and never have. I look at the world where each of us can make a difference with just a little effort and I don’t view it as “events already set in motion there is nothing we can do about it” Myself I am a pretty persuasive letter writer and even at one point changed the direction of an entire Army Division (imagine that) via a little persuasive letter to it’s General. Also, in the Army I wrote letters on behalf of Amnesty International on Army letterhead no less, much to the chagrin of my peers, seeking the release of a largely unknown poet in the West at the time whose name was Vaclav Havel…who later was released in part due to the letters and became the PM of the Czech Republic. I know I had a impact there because Mr. Havel was gracious
Ozark Mountain Rail Co…Milwaukee Road Coaches…
He-he-he-he, that stuff needs a LOT of tender loving care to bring it up to Amtrak Standards but I would ride it any day of the week over the rolling bauble bodied tin can from Spain (Talgo).
BTW, did you guys read the legal settlement between Wisconsin and Talgo. It reads something like this: “State of Wisconsin agrees to pay Talgo 7.5 million (I forgot the figure but think it was this amount) for the production of the Talgo trains in return the Talgo company agrees to pay the State of Wisconsin 7.5 million out of the revenues of the sale of the equipment to any other buyer”
What kind of settlement is that? Lol? In other words if Talgo sells the equipment and gets at least 7.5 million…Wisconsin doesn’t lose a penny.
And Talgo is still grumbling about how the price of the trains wasn’t really the price of the trains but was discounted because they took into account the 50 year lease or whatever on the maintenence base Milwaukee was to build, blah, blah, blah. You know what, even if that were true, why didn’t they have that in the contract written down and calculated in case of cancellation? Why was not there? Oh yeah because it was a no bid contract for the train and they were low balling the price to make the train look more palitable when compared with two other competitors.
I still think that an overnighter is a mistake since it implies a write-off of a realistic service to the intermediate stops. A morning and an afternoon day train is probably the best approach since it provides a start at providing a real service to more than just the endpoints.
The stations in question, Columbus, the Dells, Tomah and Portage are only stops in the proposal because they always have been. Like they do in so many domains, Amtrak “plans” for the future by just doing the same ol. A rational examination shows that the populations and ridership currently do not support continuance of any, with the possible exception of Columbus. One would think the Dells stop would be busy in the summer but currently it isn’t.
The answer I got was they are giving priority to the day trains first but consider that an overnighter having run before in the corridor is a topic they might need to look at again. The Minnesota Advocacy Group stated the same position.
A train that departs after Dinner from Chicago and arrives before breakfest in the Twin Cities does not need a Dining Car … or a Dining Car staff. It can suffice with a snack bar or less. Can skip most of the intermediate stops (stations do not need to be staffed into the early a.m.). Has much more flexibility timewise with arrival in the Twin Cities eroding the Class I complaints they need to add more track. Just need sleepers and coaches and I even pointed out if they designed a decent long distance or overnight coaches it could be pulled off with just long distance coaches. Then the trainset would be avialable to use for a RT in the day departing from the Twin Cities as long as it was back in time to depart for Chicago after dinner from the Twin Cities. Thus an overnight train can really have most of the labor costs stripped from it’s P&L because most of the passengers on board are sleeping or preparing to. Though if it was up to me I would definitely have a sight-seer lounge or dome car serving alcholic drinks as well as light snacks in the evening and just light snacks in the morning with coffee.
The upgraded business class coach would work well on this route since it should attract a decent number o
Partially the fault of Amtrak for not selling vacation packages there. The Milwaukee Road did when it ran the trains AND it is a resort area. Also, partially the fault of the Dells for not promoting the rail option among visitors and more so in it’s advertisements. Both areas could be fixed with a little Amtrak management attention.
Columbus doesn’t only draw passengers from Madison. It also draws passengers from northeastern Wisconsin (Fox Valley) using Hwy 151 to get there; particularly those traveling from and to the west on the Builder.
Me thinks they should just upgrade the Madison to Watertown segment and dip down to Madison from the junction in Portage and change the route to Portage - Madison - Sun Prarie…rejoin the main at Watertown. The Madison - Watertown portion is state owned anyways and leased to WSOR. Yes it is a longer route but they would boost ridership enough to offset the small time increase and perhaps they could upgrade Watertown to Madison enough to recapture some lost time over the more Northern route. They would also still retain Wisconsin Dells as a stop but it would take a little longer to get there from Milwaukee but then they would also add Madison to Wisconsin Dells as a travel segment in addition to Milwaukee - Wisconsin Dells.
Plus I think shifting the cooridor trains off the mainline between Watertown and Portage might give CP more operational breathing room.
Columbus had ridership (boardings + alightings) in 2015 of only 12,906.
The Dells…13,240.
Portage…6,116
Tomah…10,300
The goal is a corridor service with a competitive (with roads) 7 hour time maximum. Those 4 stops add 35-45 minutes to the total with little added patronage. Adding Madison makes sense because it is a large metro area, it’s the capital and it has 43,000 students, many of whom might become riders. Adding Sturtevant makes sense to serve the populous north suburban and Kenosha areas. Passenger trains need to be about serving markets (people) not a few voters.
Thats great that interested parties write letters with their concerns. However, the citizens in the towns that would lose service will get much more sy