I’ve been convinced (pretty easily) that reviving a 20 year old and flawed shelf layout is not the right approach.
So I’m ready to go back to the drawing board and do some deeper conceptual thinking and longer-range planning.
I’m interested in transition-era anthracite roads, enjoy industrial switching as well as mainline freights, would love to mimic the Lehigh and Keystone Valley or Jeff Mutter’s Erie Lackawanna , just on a smaller scale. I currently have access to a roughly 10’ x 20’ layout space in a finished, inexpensively rented office, but eventually may want to move the layout to a larger but currently unfinished 19’ x 24 space that I own. I am interested in exploring multi-deck approaches but am not interested in helixes, so a “no-lix” is probably what I’m after. I’ve got a fair amount of rolling stock and locomotives, so a healthy-sized staging yard would be ideal, both for storage and for operations. The prototype region to be modeled might be based on part of the Scranton-Binghamton-Elmira corridor as well as related branches, which I figure would provide the flexibility to plausibly run equipment from six or seven different railroads that operated in that area.
I know this is sort of an impossibly open-ended and vague “request for discussion,” but I really have enjoyed eaves-dropping on the conversations on this forum over the years, and I’m really just hoping folks here are willing to think outloud with me as I puzzle through the options of a new layout while I’m learning the basics of some of the new technology that wasn’t around 20 years ago when I left the hobby.
Again, thanks in advance for whatever thoughts you’d care to contribute.
It terms of the above space and goals, thats pretty much me, just a different geography and railraod. I’ve got a 10x18 foot finished space and want to stage a bunch of trains of substantial length with basically two levels (more or less) and a no-lix.
In HO, that isn’t much space so my solution is a twice around the room layout with 32-inch minimum curves. There is a 2 foot wide bottom level on one side which holds 11 staging tracks with capacities ranging from 13 to 22 feet - ladder at both ends. The trains leave the staging yard, travel around the otherside and gain elevation on a 2.9% grade to the top level with a yard with some switching, some industries, engine tracks etc. passing capacity of 18 foot max long trains and then back down around 2.9% grade into staging.
In the link below, there are photo’s on that page under username riogrande of my “under construction” layout if you want to see what I’ve got brewing in that space so far. I’ve finished the lower level and staging tracks, and am currently working on finishing the benchwork of the upper level - and just about ready to “close the loop” on the subroadbed.
I’ve built all the benchwork in sections using open grid 1x4 frame work, but the track is laid over the gaps so it would have to be cut or removed t
Those photos are fantastic, the staging yard is exactly what I have in mind and the fact that your locomotives can climb from that level to the next is great. It does sound like the 8" clearance is tricky–I wonder how that affects the mounting of Tortoises or the like above the staging? I would also love to see the track plan of the upper level if you’re willing to scan it. I am now playing with cheating the 10’ width part of my space (partly as a result of Cuyama’s photo of his 13x19 track plan in the other thread). But the staging that you have managed is something I’d like to attempt as well.
A problem is the two different spaces. A “no-lix” might not expand as well as a single level. A 19 ft space has plenty of room for a peninsula, a 10 ft wide space does not. There are also the matters of access to the room. One approach would be to design what would fit in a 19 x24 ft space and see if you can slice a chunk out that will fit in a smaller space. A 10x20 room has an effective lap of 8x18 or 52 ft. At a 2% grade that will get you up 12". Most double decks are 14-18" separation. Remember that’s ALL of the main track on a 2% grade. If you uncouple from the train without some additional device, the train will roll away. You can design a two level layout that can be recycled into a larger space but it will take some clever engineering to cut it apart and put it into another space. The bad news is very few layouts I have been associated with that moved to a larger space survived the transition relatively in tact. Most survived as pieces.
This is really helpful as well. The math of trying to pull off a ‘no-lix’ in the 10x20 space may just be wishful thinking on my part, as is the idea of building now with thoughts of moving it and expanding later.
It might be helpful to see the footprint of each space: maybe I’m not thinking creatively enough about how to utilize the space(s).
The 16x29 space is my rented office, and as with any rental there is always the possibility of a lease not being renewed, rent being increased too much, etc., hence the thinking that I need to be flexible about moving it in the future.
The 19x24 space is a 100+ year old shed/barn/carriage house that we own. No electricity, heat, or light right now. But good bones and worth fixing up (eventually). These pics are just screen captures of some doodling I’ve done using Empire Express, which has been on my computer forever, but note
How big is the rented space? I’ve seen a few different dimensions mentioned.
But either way it sounds like your owned space is larger. And the best part- it’s yours. It would be a shame if the landlord decided next month that you’re out when you just finished ballasting track.
I have no idea the condition of the owned barn/shed or what it would take to get it warm and sealed up but that’s what I would choose. It would get rid of trying to build something that’s made to be moved and expanded and the uncertainty of how long you can stay.
Like I said- I don’t know all the specifics and probably not any of my bees wax but those are my thoughts. I’m looking forward to following your progress. Good luck and have fun.
The rented office is overall 16x29, but the landlord needs access to the electrical panel (for the whole building) and my workbench, desk, couches, etc. are along the bottom wall on the photo above. So I’ve estimated the layout space at 10x20.
I agree with you in principle about fixing up the shed (it’s a barn, really, or an old carriage house), but I’m thinking conservatively it would take $10k to make it work (electricity, insulation, heat, and some kind of wall covering and floor covering). The office on the other hand is lit, heated (utilities are included), bright, clean, and costs less than $300/month. It’s in an ancient building in our village downtown, and I suspect the rent won’t change and the landlord won’t evict me [:)] (famous last words I suppose).
If you’re curious I’ll dig out some photos of the shed. It definitely needs work.
I’m only using switch machines in the staging yard and mostly using ground throws such as Caboose Industries in the above yard, so no Tortoises underneath. Which helps.
I’ll try to take it to work and scan it tomorrow if I can and post it over the weekend. There are photo’s in that topic on the forum where you can see the track work of the staging yard throats which incorporates some number 8 curved turnouts.
Yes, my plan is specifically taylored to my small space so it may not be suitable for expansion. But the basic design fits your initial criteria pretty closely. Hopefully food for thought if nothing else.
Wow. That carriage house is awesome. I wish I had that. Seems like a place I could do a lot of damage.
My assumption was you could just toss in a heater and be good to go, but I see your point now.
I started my layout about a year ago with the intention of being able to take it apart when we move. I’m starting to wonder how realistic that will be. It’ll be sad if it doesn’t make it but I guess it’s worth a shot. I hope the next house has a carriage house type structure (those seeds are being planted now) for a layout. If the current layout doesn’t survive the move there’s always building a new one to look forward to.
To design my layout I used a free program called scarm which helped out a lot. Looks like you’re on that track already (pun intended? [:-^]). FWIW Advice that helped me: don’t let the hobby become planning a layout. Get trains running asap. Advice I wished I followed: don’t run track parallel to the benchwork.
I have to say this last piece of advice has been what’s motivated me to pull the old shelf layout out of the shed and into my office: basically to get trains running. I will probably still hook some track up to it temporarily in order to do exactly what you say here, i.e. get trains running asap. After all, I have been in the “planning a layout” phase for over 20 years. So this is very good advice indeed.
Lokks like you’re just copying and pasting the URL that shows in the browser window when you are on your Flickr account. That’s not the URL to use to link for others to see. There should be a selection of link options for each photo - you need to use one that ends with a photo file type, like jpg.
For track design, you have to find what works for you. Years ago I devoured and wore out John Armstrongs “Track Planning for Realistic Operation” book. Track software was in it’s it’s infancy so I bought graph paper, a compass and a scale rule and went at it.
I scanned my track drawing to a PDF but at work Photobucket is blocked and I don’t see an option to upload here. A few of lines didn’t show up on the scan I did, and there was no option that I could find to darken it. I’ll keep trying.
What I did/do is scale out the room/area I have on the graph paper to scale - with all the walls and obstructions/doors/pillars/supports etc. outline in on the graph paper. At that point make afew photo copies as that is the template for your layout space. Then with that you can take a compass and adjust it to your minimum radius and begin to draw in or visualize where your curves and turn backs will fit as they eat the most space.
If you can do the above on a computer, it will help you visualize and decide what you can fit and how you can best utilize the space. Major design elements like yards, sidings and curves/turnbacks are the things that are keys to fitting in. Staging yards too.
I like visualizing with physical old school 11x17 graph paper, but if you are young and techie, you can apply these techniques on the computer too, whatever works best for you.
Randy, not quite sure what you mean, I am seeing the photos alright in my browser, although I am getting some additional code next to the photos that include the link to flickr as well. I’ll play with the other sharing settings from flickr, but are you unable to see the photos? thanks for bringing this up, I’m just getting used to the logistics of this forum but want to get things right.
One thing to keep in mind is that a layout meant to be moved, or even be made fit to be moved, should follow certain practices right from the start. Jim Kelly wrote in Model Railroader years ago that the excellent L-girder method of benchwork just does not move well; its flexibility becomes fragility. I myself built my layout using the David Barrow “domino” system of same-sized segments, which has its own benefits in planning and construction, but there is no question that it is heavy and “over built” due to each four foot long segment having its own structural integrity and ability to stand alone. But it could fairly readily be moved, or at the least the benchwork could be readily re-used even if the layout per se was scrapped.
Wiring is another thing that might best be done differently if disassembly and moving are in the future. Ditto for scenery, particularly if plaster is involved. Even placement of turnouts and other complex trackwork needs to be thought through at the planning stage.
Moving a double deck layout may have even more challenges that I am not aware of.
Dave, this is another good point; but I’d have to mention that the 2x10 shelf layout from 20 years ago has now been moved twice, and each time I’ve been impressed with how well it’s held up and also with how light it is. With that said, these are moves of just 3-5 miles in the back of my pickup truck–nothing at all like moving halfway across the country and trusting your layout to United Van Lines or whomever. [:'(]
On the wiring issue, I’m pretty much already planning the connectors and connections between ‘modules’ (if that’s what you want to call them) at the natural break points.
You’re probably right about moving a double decker, although if I experiment with that this time around, I’m inclined (at the moment any