American Flyer Steam Engine - Speed Problem

Classic Toy Trains Forum
1

Arggghhhh,

I am going nuts trying to figure out why my American Flyer #312, a 1946 model with smoke unit in the boiler has a speed issue.

Here is the current status of my efforts to resolve this issue.

I replaced the original reversing unit in the tender with a Dallee electronic unit last winter. The motor, however, is the original open frame motor.

I have been experiencing speed issues for months. It runs way too slow, I mean really slow, and even slower if it is pulling cars.

Today, I replaced the wiring harness with a new one because I had wondered if the wiring harness that I installed last winter had too small gauge wires. It made no difference, though, when I replaced it today with a new one from Portlines.

Next, I re-cleaned the motor for a second time in as many months, cleaning the motor fields and the armature once again. I replaced the brushes with new ones from Portlines cleaning out the brush tubes in the process. Put it back together except for the bolier shell and it still ran slow.

So, I put in up on blocks and watched it perform. Incidentally, I removed all of the linkages from the driver wheels to eliminate any mechanical binding problems. It still ran slow in forward, but considerably faster in reverse.

That is where I am at. I am stumped.

Darn, Christmas is in 23 days, and I am growing discouraged about the possibility of seeing this little guy run around the tree.

Any ideas, suggestions or advice?

Rich

2

Rich:

Did you read this:

http://www.portlines.com/portlinesclinic20.htm

Did you do all that Doug has suggested in the above?

OBTW: “Here is where I am at.” You ended this sentence with a preposition. A grammar infraction; up with which I shall not put. LOL

Regards,

Timboy

3

Ehhh, whatchutalkinboutwillis? What sentence ends in a preposition? LOL

Oh cripes, I wasn’t sure that anyone would have an anwer to my question, and then you go and find a clinic called “The Faster In Reverse Syndrome”. [bow]

Geez, when I read through it though, it sounds like I may be better off buying a can motor.

Now, let’s see, where is that link at? [(-D]

Rich

4

Rich:

Thirty-five dollars, sailor. That plus shipping gets you a 1/2 speed AC can motor from Portlines. Why 1/2 speed? To get good “smoke” production. Why did I put the word smoke in quotation marks? Because it’s not smoke in the true meaning; it’s a vapor. Good vapor production is where it’s at - to use commoner’s lingo. I try to blend. LOL I’m invisible. LOL

Regards,

Timboy, The Accurat Linguistics Expert

5

Actually both smoke and the stuff that comes out of a “smoke” generator are aerosols, that is, small particles of liquid or solid suspended in gas (the air). Steam, for example, is a vapor or gas and is invisible. The stuff that folks popularly call “steam” is actually an aerosol comprising tiny drops of water condensed from what was steam.

6

So did you replace the washers at the motor base?

Jim

7

Guys:

Aerosol 'em if ya got 'em! LOL

Timboy

8

Hi guys,

Great commentary, but my question is did 312 get fixed?

George

9

Here is the text of the “Faster In Reverse Syndrome” on the Portlines web site:

This is not an uncommon problem, and there can be several causes.
a) an overheated motor, requiring rewinding.
b) poor centering of the armature plates within the field plates.
c) too much “play” of the armature from front to back…should have some but not a lot.
d) lack of at least one thrust washer on the front end of the armature, to reduce friction between the armature and the chassis bearing.
e) worn bearing in either the chassis or the brush bracket (both ends of the armature), resulting in too much sideways “play”. Replace as necessary…replacement, reproduction bearings are now available.
f) the face of the commutator may not be flat. It is not unusual for brush-wear to create “cups” or indentations in the surface of the commutator, especially near the slots. When run in the reverse direction, the brushes now tend to get caught, or meet resistance, at those indentations, reducing speed.

If (b), (c), (d) and/or (e) do not correct the problem, then a can motor

10

Hey, Admiral, I tend to agree on the 1/2 speed AC can motor from Portlines.

Rich

11

Jim,

No, I did not replace the washers at the motor base. When I take another look at the motor today, I will check this out. Thanks.

Rich

12

George,

Not yet, regrettably. I will go through the Portlines checklist as best I can, then post my findings.

Rich

13

If the trhrust washers have worn it will cause it to slow, Get several and gradually add one at a time till you get the right combination.

Jim

14

Jim,

In your earlier message, you asked if I had replaced the washers at the motor base. Are those the thrust washers that you are asking about in this current post? In that Portlines clinic, there is this comment: d) lack of at least one thrust washer on the front end of the armature, to reduce friction between the armature and the chassis bearing. Is this what you are referring to?

Also, here is a diagram of the #312 motor assembly. Is the thrust washer the item shown on the far left where the armature and motor field connect to the chassis?

Rich

15

In the Portlines clinic, there is this statement:

e) worn bearing in either the chassis or the brush bracket (both ends of the armature), resulting in too much sideways “play”. Replace as necessary…replacement, reproduction bearings are now available.

Has anyone replaced these bearings? If so, did it solve the problem?

I would appreciate your thoughts and comments.

Rich

16

Rich,

I noticed in the video that you posted after the smoke unit rebuild that the brush bracket on your 312 is the 1946-47 tubeless type, and not the tube type that was used in the SIB 312s from 48 on.

The reason that I brought this up is that some brackets are designed to be used with an armature that has an oil slinger between the commutator and brush bracket. If the armature and bracket are mismatched, there will be excessive rearward play. This will only manifest itself while the loco is running forward since the armature spins counterclockwise and attempts to back out of the chasis. When the loco is run in reverse, the armature spins clockwise into the chasis, and any rearward play isn’t an issue.

Could you post a pic of the commutator and the inside of the brush bracket?

17

Jim,

If you are referring to the motor brushes, my #312 has brush tubes. In fact, when I replaced the brushes earlier this week, I used a slimmed down QTIP to clean the insides of the tubes. Or, am I not understanding you correctly?

Rich

18

Rich,

The tubeless brush braket has brass brush holders that are open with the brush visible and use a lever spring. The tube brush bracket has brass tubes that contain the brushes and coil springs, and the end of the tubes are covered with a slide on brass cap.

19

Jim,

Ahh, I see what you mean. You are correct, of course, in that it is indeed a tubeless brush bracket. What I incorrectly described as “tubes” on my engine are in fact brass brush holders that are open with the brushes visible and held in place by lever springs that press against a slot in each brush.

In your earlier post, you asked if I could post a picture of the commutator and inside of the brush bracket. I am not sure how much you want to see, but if you need me to photograph these two parts in an unassembled position, I will need to take the motor apart again. For the moment, I am reluctant to do this, even though I may eventually have to once again if additional repairs are needed.

You also mentioned that some brackets are designed to be used with an armature that has an oil slinger between the commutator and brush bracket. If the armature and bracket are mismatched, there will be excessive rearward play. I confess that I have no idea what an oil slinger is, but if you can give me a little more detail on what to look for, I can report back to you.

I can tell you this. I have owned this engine since it was purchased new in 1946 by my father, and the motor has never been disassembled for repair until this year by me. So, all parts are original, and there is no apparent damage or abuse. If the armature and bracket are mismatched, causing excessive rearward play, would that “mismatch” be the result of normal wear and tear? Or, would a mismatch only occur in the event t

20

Rich,

The oil slinger is a conical piece of brass on the armature shaft just above the commutator. It is visible with the locomotive upside down. The bearings could be an issue, but I’ve never seen them go bad. My dad ran some of his locos hard and over long hours, and they are fine. Since we know that the aramture and brush bracket are a matched original set in your case, I’ve got some more thoughts:

  1. Does the commutator have a groove worn into it? I’ve got a 302 that runs faster in reverse due to a grooved commutator.

  2. Have you replaced the brush springs? If the springs are original, they might have fatigued. Lightly apply pressure to the brushes with the motor running to see if it speeds up. If it speeds up, you’ve found the problem. If one spring has fatigued, the motor will run faster in one direction than the other.

I won’t give up on this until we get this fixed.[:)]