American made Lionel

Classic Toy Trains Forum
1

Hi everyone,

Maybe you can share with me your thoughts on why foreign-made lionel trains leave me feeling empty.

I’m a huge fan of everything up until 2000. Then after that, I only seem to appreciate the PWC and the Conventional Classic series (which really needs to make its return). But even those are still iffy for me. I think that fantastic packaging is their redeeming quality.

I’m not a xenophobe. I love my Nintendo made in Japan (which may be made in China now), and I wouldn’t like it if Porsches started being made in the US.

If it seems like my thoughts on this are scattered, it is because they are! I just can’t seem to pinpoint what is is that makes a Lionel item from New Jersey or Detroit have more value, desirability, and charm for me.

I also miss the artwork catalogs. Even the 1996 -98ish LLC ones (which were my first illustrated ones as I missed the postwar era by decades). Maybe the new stuff is too detailed. I have no idea. Thoughts appreciated.

2

Joe, tariffs may raise the price of imports from China. Domestic production may restart. What goes around, comes around.

3

It’s highly doubtful that engine production will ever come back here. One of the gripes about Chinese production is that once they get ahold of dies and molds etc., they will NOT give them back, claiming that they now belong to them - regardless of origin.

No niche toy company can afford to re-engineer and rebuild that equipment.[:(]

4

That’s a HUGE piece of it in my book! [tup]

I also think there’s something that gnaws at my psyche and makes me a bit upset in the back of my unconscious. If I had to put a label on it, I’d say it’s distress at the idea that maybe these trains could be made here if we were just better at “playing nice” with one another. You can break that down into the greed of the wealthy vs. the needs of the average if you like. But does a gallon of gas REALLY need to provide such high profits to the few?

If things didn’t have to be as expensive as they are, all of us might live a bit more comfortably.

5

I think I know how you feel JoeD, I feel kind of the same way, and here’s why…

Ever see “Raiders Of The Lost Ark?” I’m sure you have. Remember what Belloq the “bad archaeologist” said to Indiana Jones?

"You and I are only passing through history Doctor Jones. THIS (as he slaps the side of the Ark) IS history!"

And so it is with those little time-travelers we call pre-war and post war Lionels. The new Lionels (and MTH’s, RMT’s, Menards, and so forth) made in Asia will never have the mystique of the old timers, no matter how good they are. And they ARE good. But those old Lionels and American Flyers, they ARE history!

Mystique, mystery, romance, history, whatever you want to call it, it’s real, it’s tangible, and we all feel it. It’s the same vibe you get if you hold an original Revolutionary War or Civil War musket. Where has it been? What has it seen? Who carried it? And oh, if it could speak! Just hold one and you can feel it slowly but surely pulling you back into it’s own time, even if it’s just your imagination going into overdrive.

And dammit, those old Lionels are American! And most of them still work, or can be made to by those with basic skills. They weren’t built to be used up and thrown away, they were made to LAST. And last they have, probably beyond the expectations of the original builders.

A few weeks back I had the pleasure of handling a pre-war Lionel 226E 2-6-4 locomotive. Heavy as a cinder block and just as solid, I could almost feel the power of American industry of the time, the same industry that was going to smash Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan a few years later. Just from holding that toy. Amazing.

Sure, I know how you feel. I know just how you feel. The Asian stuff is just fine, more than fine, some of it’

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I’m sure all of us have noticed that when things get “deregulated” or “outsourced”, or corporate megamergers are allowed, the promise is always that this will mean lower prices for the consumer.

Well, we ain’t seen it yet.

(I guess it must be the fault of all those gouging American workers who want to be paid for their labors - how dare they!).

7

I actually like all of Lionel (and MTH and K-Line), new and old. The biggest plus for the postwar gear is it is easy for the user to work on. And it is a lot more reliable.

BTW…was watching on FOX news where Mercedes has a plant in the USA that makes SUVs. If I were to buy a Mercedes, it dang sure better have “Made in Germany” stamped all over it. Not Made in USA in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. [tdn]

8

That is an experience I can say I was lucky enough to have! [:D] My 8th grade teacher had one that was handed down through her family since her ancestor used it during the revolution. After we were done with it in class, she allowed me the honor of carrying it back to her car while she went on with the rest of the class. There was more weight on that old musket than just the wood and iron! [;)]

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You get it M’Lady, you get it indeed. You felt the “vibe.”

And imagine bringing a gun to school in this day and age. Ain’t gonna happen anymore, even with a relic.

And it’s really remarkable to have a musket from the Revolution still in the family. Since the veterans of the Revolution went home unpaid, except for IOU’s from the Continental Congress, they were allowed to take home their muskets and personal field equipment as a sort of payment. Many of the soldiers sold their gear to civilians just to have some money for the long walk home.

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It had it’s “charger” no less! [:D] (“Charger” as in bayonette! [;)])

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Now THAT’S amazing! A lot of those muskets that made it home usually went to work around the farm for hunting or pest control purposes, like most farm guns, and the bayonets disappeared over the years.

Truly remarkable.

Now here’s something else that’s interesting but has nothing to do with toy trains, I admit. Continuing with farm guns…

Every once in a while at an antique show or gun show I’ll run into a Civil War musket that started life as a .58 caliber rifle, but now is smoothbored. Why is that?

Well, a lot of Civil War veterans who brought the rifles home with them were farmers, and a .58 caliber rifle wasn’t much use around the farm, but a 20 gauge shotgun was. So, they’d take them to the local gunsmith and have them smoothbored. Surplus weapons dealers like Francis Bannerman did it as well. This was done to quite a few of them, so don’t any of you be too suprised if you run into one.

The neat thing is, that smoothboring cuts the value in half, making for a relatively inexpensive Civil War relic. And if it’s in good condition, a fun shooter.

12

I think this generally applies to anything that has some collectibility. I have a 1983 Z28 and even though it’s 35 years old, I’d rather have a '67-'69. Unfortunately, the fine folks at Barrett Jackson (and others) have pushed that market out of reach. Same with my Fender Jazz Bass. Mine is 20 years old, but I’d take a late '50s model in a heartbeat. As much as I appreciate the older Lionel product, I certainly like the advancements in technology and scale detail the newer models have. I know we already discussed in depth the debate on US made vs. offshore trains in your March 2017 post.

13

Yeah. I sold my late 90’s vintage Les Paul Goldtop last year but 90% of those looking at it wanted the 60’s original.

14

What do you mean by, “once they get ahold of dies and molds etc., they will NOT give them back, claiming that they now belong to them - regardless of origin”?

I’ve never heard nor read about anything like this before.

15

Over in China the goverment owns everything. You may pay to have it built but they own it.

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China’s still a Communist country, even though they’re making a good game at capitalism and they’re not koo-koo Commies like they were back in Mao’s time. (I remember the 1960’s when the Chinese made the Russians look downright reasonable!) The state owns everything in a Communist society that we’d associate with the private sector here, especially the industry.

The tooling and dies could be recreated here, certainly it’d be expensive to start from scratch all over again, but not difficult or impossible.

Who knows? But my guess would be it might be even easier to recreate the tooling and dies with the computer-assisted machining technology available today, and with the post-wars as models, than it was to create them decades ago.

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Yep. Tools and dies are a sort of “intellectual property” in China and they’re not allowed to leave the country. Ridiculous eh?

18

I look at my Pre,Postwar, and even MPC trains with a sense of history. We were the best, manufactured to last, and be handed down thru the generations. Today’s foreign made trains while fantastic in detail just don’t give me the same feeling.I have one non USA made locomotive, a MTH RK PRR M1a. I love this engine, but I don’t look at it or get the same feeling as I do from a Lionel,Marx, or Flyer piece that has Made IN USA on it.

19

Unfortunately, on the flip side there’s been lots of quality control issues with the LionScale product. Hopefully Lionel can get that addressed…

20

I do like the Lionel of today but not my price point. I think that has done a lot, to cause me to go back to prewar and postwar trains. The thing I think bugs me the most of trains of today is that the two main manufactures can’t make a system that will run both. So While I can’t afford either really other than used and pray it’s okay when I buy it, When I buy prewar or post war at least 90% of the time I can fix what is wrong with them. About 5% of the other is because of lack of correct tooling, and other 5% just don’t have know how/confidence to do the repair. The newer stuff Just to expensive to get fixed.

For most part I can do with old tech., get my track to switch when and where I want by good old classic wiring.

I’m for ever hear that this piece of Lionel came in with this broke or missing screws etc, and the same with MTH. I think it may have originally been cheaper for them but I feel now the qualitu as seem to drop, compare to when it was first moved over there. I feel eventually either folks are going to accept what they get will need to be repaired or just stop buying. Quality control it appears has gone out the door.