But how could we trust the railfans? They could be a security risk. Better stop people from railfanning, too.
Kyle, you made a rather long reply, and tried to make a chain of events leading from trespassing to disaster but I don’t see where you answered my question, in what states is it legal to use deadly force to protect property?
Based on your logic it should also be legal to shoot every automobile driver because of the demonstrated potential to use automobiles as bombs, yet even in war we don’t shoot every automobile.
Graffiti on any infrastructure sends a message that such is tolerated. On the railroads the invitation is there. The notion even exists that if the tagger leaves the data visible the defacement is agreeable.
Kyle gets it and emphasizes a very important point. Let the terrorist follow the lead of the graffiti vandal and the nation’s railways are extremely vulnerable to an attack. Security is great if its measured by how many photographers and joggers are caught. Yet, the industry continues to be outsmarted by a legion of illiterate artist entering and leaving the property at will.
Good job Kyle.
They are only “outsmarted” if the industry is making an attempt to fortify the ENTIRE rail network to the same level as a military installation to prevent any trespassing at any place on its property.
Since there is only an attempt to do that at high theft areas (intermodal ramps, auto facilities, etc) the rest of the infrastructure is not fortified (unless you consider 3 strands of barbed wire intended to dissuade cows from getting run over as fortifications).
People have stolen jet skis from facilities with double 20 ft tall chain link fences with concertina wire on top.
There is no way the railroads could physically provide the level of security you guys think they should have. Every grade crossing and every industry is literally a hole in the fence. Its really neat to beat one’s chest and say that railroads should keep all the trespassers out, its really a different thing to actually have to do it. N Korea and E Germany set up some of the most fearsome borders in the world and people still manage to get through them. If you think about it, during WW2 Germany had armed troops patrolling the tracks and armed guards on trains, with orders to shoot to kill (the Kyle solution), and people were still able to "trespa
Nobody is asking or thinking trespassing can be stopped. The point is that graffiti conveys a lack of security. That lack of security could be the catalyst for the acts Kyle mentions.
Imagine boarding a plane covered in graffiti. Your first thought should be “where’s the security?” Someday, somewhere some evil doer is going to ask the same thing about a graffiti covered rail network. Fact is as long as somebody can bring ladders, a boom box, multitudes of spray paint and even lighting to any track location in the country and not get caught…There is no security.
Rationalize that all you want.
If airplanes were parked on remote locations for days at a time, they’d be covered with graffiti, too.
On 9/11 I doubt the planes were covered in grafitti. The “evil doers” chose the targets because of the nature of the targets not because of their physical appearance. They attacked through layers of security way higher than anything at a railroad yard.
If somebody is going to attack a tank car of chemicals they aren’t going to do it because it has grafitti on it, they are going to do it because its a tank car of chemicals.
If you really want a security risk, its these forums. I bet if you asked on a railfan forum if they knew what routes the oil trains operated on or asked about where they shipped some hazardous material, you could get dozens of responses detailing that type of information, complete with pictures and Google map links. The one benefit of this forum is that its pretty likely that before any real information would be posted the thread would break down into bickering about some point on semantics, thus averting a national crisis [:)].
You can’t trust everyone, but as long as people are staying away from the rolling stock and tracks, they are fine. Plus there are many good people out there, so by allow people to railfan, you increase the number of good eyes out there that will notify the RR of suspicious activity or objects. Though we should not make the security like they have at airports, that is overkill for a RR.
A automobile will not bring the same destruction as a major derailment. Not to mention many roads have alternative routes so you couldn’t throw the interstate network into chaos. Derailments have the force to wipe small towns off the map. It can easily take down a bridge. And there aren’t a lot of alternate routes that are way to use. Derailments also take a lot more time to clean up. And there is no easy way to protect automobiles.
Kyle, in what states is it legal to use deadly force to protect property?
Fine. Fence in all ROWs and yards. Make watching trains/photographing them illegal. Shut down railfan websites.
Doesn’t address the thousands of private sidings, but it is a start, I guess.
This discussion is an exercise in pure silliness, as usual, with our favorite troll Kyle. .
I don’t think they’ve counted all the votes, but I thought Kyle hadn’t made first place yet. Surely there are others more deserving of favorite troll. Maybe if he keeps trying harder, but for now I put Kyle at 3rd favorite.
Obviously - The State of Kyle
Do you remember when boxcar doors were often left open when cars were empty?.. A month or so ago, a long CN unit train of new ore jennies went through here on its way to Upper Michigan. Not a single tagged car in the train. A refreshing sight to see… Generally, I see the matter as a reflection of pride of ownership. I imagine if Harley Davidson owned freight cars adorned like their semi’s, they would be tag-free.
Fences do nothing against those who are determined to get in. Even the graffiti artist will cut holes in the fence, not to mention potential terrorist. And if railfanning is banned, then no one will watch the railroad except criminals. It is the same problem as of you ban guns. You are jut punishing the law obeying citizens. The people who already break laws obviously don’t care about laws and will break them any way. Criminals will find a way to get around bans. More good, honest people watching makes the railroads safer.
DELETE YOUR POST AT ONCE!!! I WILL NOT TOLERATE PEOPLE CALLING ME NAMES LIKE “TROLL”!!! Name calling is a childish act! Most civilized people frown upon this behaviour!!!
Once you delete your post, I will delete this one. Thank you for your cooperation.
You have violated some of the forum policies, including personal attacks and name calling. Since you refused to delete the content of the post, your post has been reported.
I know many states where it is legal to shoot thieves. Personally I would rate vandalizing property the same as stealing since you cause financial loss to the owners in either case. I can’t remember exactly which states, but I remember someone telling me Texas, Arizona, Nevada, Alabama, and others.
The point is not that graffiti is a security risk. The point is that if someone can bring ladders and a ton of spray can without being noticed, then how hard would it be for a group of terrorist to walk up to a tank train with back packs loaded with bombs and attach them to the train. Planting the bombs could happen in a sorter period of time than painting the side of an auto rack.
Kyle,
You should immediately retain a lawyer and set aside at least $250,000 to pay for your defense in the murder trial that is looming in your future.
Mac
Kyle’s fascination with deadly force suggests that he places a low value on human life other than his own. I would wonder what he would do if the vandals were also carrying deadly force and decided to return the favor.