I can’t let this one go. You do realize we are running the railroad with a fraction of the people from a generation ago? And with far less infrastructure, hundreds if not thousands of new rules, regulations, and laws, and of course with increased threat of liability from everyone and their uncle?
There is a hell of a lot of skill and savy out here Henry. Think you can do better? The railroads are hiring… hire out and teach us “young punks”.
One of the best things is listening to teh old heads out here. Sure you get the stories of the guys that were great railroaders. That is also what makes the magazines and books. What you don’t hear in the magazines are the stories about the reckless irresponsible drunks, druggies, or just plain nutjobs that also worked the industry that had no business being within 30 feet of a Lionel.
This makes me think though… how much capacity could be made by working smarter? Sure, there are probably some dispatchers and crews that do their best, but there are probably others that are lazy (when I was an airline p
Well, when in doubt, take the safest course. If you think a move will take 10 minutes, you better allow 20 minutes. I dont’ blame the freight crew, that was a tight window unless they absolutely knew they could clear in time. And if they would have stung the metra, then the tower will be hesitant to allow them any “good moves” in the future.
Or they could have broken a knuckle, and we would have had another 45 page thread on this site about it…
Zug, I’m not debunking those working today…nor dismissing the circumstances, equipment, rules, and number of employees. All these things add to my statement. If it were possible to run crack passenger trains, hot shot freights, and clunking locals back when, then why can’t it be done today? And there are a lot of “old timers” who ran railroads and trains in the glolry years who ask the same questions. So if the reason you cant run freight and passenger trains together is because there arer fewer employees, then will management address that issue with more people? Or don’t they want to? If it is they are afraid of being sued by a passenger for one reason or another is the answer not to run passenger trains so that there are no passengers to sue them? Or if there is a customer who has a train of goods once a week or once a day, should he hold the rest of the railroad hostage so that his stuff is carried at the exclusion of others, be it people or other traffic?
A big difference is that back in the day the RR was the fastest way to get from point A to point B, and in some cases the only way. That’s definitely changed today. Fact is that people will take the fastest route from point A to point B that’t not ridiculously priced, and for long distances nothing can compete with air travel these days. However, for short distances, such as corridor travel between well populated areas (as I mentioned earlier in this thread), rail could be very competitive time-wise with aircraft and cars. That’s where I believe the opportunity in passenger rail is. Also, you can’t get hung up on every dinky last local train and serving absolutely every little town on the line, because there is no economical way that you could get a frequency of service to really small towns that make the train economically viable. 100 years ago, people in a small town would wait around for an entire day to
Lets look at the railroad physical plant and operating environment of 50 years ago.
In Single Track territory there were 3000-4000 foot passing sidings approximately every 8 to 10 miles. In Double Track territory at the Interlocking Plants that existed roughly ever 8 to 10 miles there were directional passing sidings that would permit freight trains to clear for faster traffic with having to affect opposing traffic on the opposing Main track. Minor terminals all had some form of a yard, many of which would permit holding a train to be operated behind a HOT Train (Freight or Passenger).
Freight trains of the era were on the order of 2000 to 4000 feet long - a train over 5000 feet was considered a MONSTER. HAZMAT, while it did exist at the time, was nowhere near the volume of traffic that it is today and the regulations concerning it were much less stringent than they are today.
Since slow orders apply to the entire train, a 2000 foot train will clear the slow order in 2000 feet and be able to accelerate back to maximum speed. All freight trains had cabooses and crew members on both ends of the train…When the freight train was stopped for any kind of mechanical issues, inspections would take place from both ends of the train to resolve the issues. Once the issues were resolved, the train could pull by and those that worked on the mechanical issue could all board the caboose as it passed by, minimizing the train delay.
Where Automatic Block signals existed, they were spaced between 1 & 2 miles apart…when a train received a restricted proceed type signal, restricted speed to the next good signal would only be 1 to 2 miles; additionally the operating culture that was taught to crews of the era in many territories of high
If he pays for the service, why not. And there is such movements out there now.
Today, on a modern two track main line, there is an ability to run various classes of trains; coal, manifest, intermodal, and Priority trains. The key is, being able to accommodate all four classes. As a DS, moving everything in the mix, then adding passengers can become impossible. No way something going 79 mph can dodge other trains going 50 or 60 or 70 mph without delays. And no way you are going to shut down the railroad and it’s 15 - 30 trains for that one service that does not contribute fairly to it’s operations.
OK, RRKen, but your statement is why “old timers” raise the questions they do. Railroads used to run all kinds of traffic on one, two, three, four and more track mains without problems, without interference, without tying up lines and traffic. How did they do it back then and why can’t they do it now?
One theory I have is that a passenger train had a schedule (designated First Class train) which was adhered to. Therefore the rest of the railroad planned and timed the rest of the train movements around that fixed schedule which, therefore, led to efficiency: i.e. they had to make it work and they did. And seconds and minutes did count… Today they’ll stick a freight train hours in a siding awaiting traffic from an opposite direction and think nothing of it. But if it is in a siding to wait 10 minutes for a passenger train, they cry foul. No…this isn’t right…we are operating railroads at the convenience of the management and not at the convenience of the public be the public a passenger or shipper. And we are being hoodwinked into thinking different.
One point from this and other previous discussions seems pretty clear to me. Freight railroads, for the most part, view passenger trains as an inconvenient intrusion. Oh, some seem to be able to handle a heavy suburban service along with varied and dense freight operations, such as the UP West line out to Elburn, but I think that is an exception. Forget whether it is fair, forget what used to be 40+ years ago. It isn’t relevant anymore and it isn’t going to work. Safety is a real factor as well.
Passenger rail, particularly anything approaching high speed, is mostly going to need a separate set of non-interfering tracks. In some cases, existing ROW could be shared where wide enough and tracks have been removed. Perhaps some under-used ROW’s for corridor use could be purchased from the current owners. Or new ROW will need to be acquired, as in the California HSR.
But Schlimm, is that mantra or is that turth? I keep hearing that to the point I believe it to be excuses rather than reasons. My mind tells me that railroads used to run and mix all traffic with success and efficiency but now they can’t. Is it all track and train dynamics? lack of thousands of employees? legal issues? NORAC rules? government regulations? not enough return on investment to do or even try? owner/operator/employee inability to do the job? What? To say things are different is an exucse without fully explaining how things are different and why something really can’t be done. To believe and accept that things are different without knowledge and understanding of the past does not bode well for the future.
Why bother? I think many folks would prefer to dispense with all the Monday morning QBing and get on with a realistic appraisal of what needs to be done and how to do it, if one thinks that the US should develop real passenger rail corridors. In the case of a viable passenger rail service, that would be best accomplished by something along the lines of what I stated: pragmatism. If that includes junking Amtrak as an impediment, so be it. Discussions and debates about what railroads used to do 40-60 years ago, wonder if they are the same, and on and on ad nauseam, just leads to dithering around and inaction.
Henry6, what hard evidence do you have that we are operating railroads at the convenience of the management and not at the convenience of the public be the public a passenger or shipper?
I believe that investment banking oriented business strive to save money for their best interests by cutting employees, cutting facilities, and cutting services, and cutting quality and not provide the best product or service they can, often not even close to what their pruported business is supposed to be. Then the sell the skeletons and cadavers to the junk dealers.
I have been involve or close to many businesses from broadcasting to railroading to various manufacturers and have come to that conclusion. Others have to. When you see a primier canoe manufacturer bought out by big investors who move the facility away from the talent and then have the business fail because of poor product, you believe as I do. When you see a high end line stereo manufacturing plant closed down because it was cheaper to do the work off shore and then see the plant reopen in hopes of redeeming the loss, you believe as I do. When you see merging of facilities and dismissing of staffs in order to save money to make money only to have the income and of the combined facility and staff to be equal to only one of the original facilities and the profit less while the product suffers from poor quality and effect than before, then you believe as I do. When you see factories purchased and closed to eliminate competition because that factory produced a better product and the new owners didn’t want to compete or invest, then you belive as I do. I have witnessed such shenanigans quite frequently across many such incidents. Go out to buy a motion detector light and try to keep it working properly for more than one month. Truth is those who manufacture and market the cheap units have pushed quality units at higher prices out of the retail market place. Tried five units until I gave up trying.
I started my career in the days of the old timers and continue it in today’s world. The physical plant that it took to make the railroads of your day henry6 work in the manner of your gilt edge memory is also the physical plant that took those carriers to bankruptcy. In the so called ‘Golden Age’ of railroading the carriers were operating almost 1/4 million miles of physical plant in the US. Today that figure is 1/2 or less of that mileage. In that so called Golden Age, the Hours of Service permitted 16 working hours for T&E crews, rest on the Caboose was permitted. Most operating plans moved freight only terminal to terminal before re-switching and the terminals were no more the 150-200 miles apart. Those are not the realities of today’s Money Making carriers. Can today’s carriers perform their business better; Yes, that is what they strive to do every day for their real customers. Amtrak, is not the customer that pays the bills and keeps the lights on, on any freight carriers railroad, and considering the financial condition that Congress keeps Amtrak in, it NEVER will be the customer the pays the bills and keeps the lights on.
[quote user=“henry6”]
OK, RRKen, but your statement is why “old timers” raise the questions they do. Railroads used to run all kinds of traffic on one, two, three, four and more track mains without problems, without interference, without tying up lines and traffic. How did they do it back then and why can’t they do it now?
One theory I have is that a passenger train had a schedule (designated First Class train) which was adhered to. Therefore the rest of the railroad planned and timed the rest of the train movements around that fixed schedule which, therefore, led to efficiency: i.e. they had to make it work and they did. And seconds and minutes did count… Today they’ll stick a freight train ho
I do agree with you BaltACD about the realities of today’s carriers. But I question today’s business platforms. I do it from the perspective of what used to be accomplished then and what management said they wanted then. If only on the basis that they got deregulated and got rid of the FCC they should have made huge fortunes doing what they were doing. But investment banker mentality made them change to the way they do things. Sure they are making money doing what they are doing the way they are doing it. But too often they are not
I’m not sure where this thread is heading, but here goes.
henry6:
Business has always been run by the bankers. It takes money to make money. The bankers have the money. They use it to make more money. That has been true of the railroad business from the start. What has changed, is your perception of how it used to be in the good old days. Business is all about making a profit. It always has been. It always will be. That is what business is.
Conrail was a collection of bankrupt eastern railroads that Uncle Sam spent several Billions of dollars bringing back to life. Your money and mine was used to rebuild it to a workable railroad, then sell it for a lot less money that we had into it. It may be romantic to think that Conrail or the railroads it took over could somehow have been restored to their past glory, but it’s not realistic.
Every day the world turns. The only constant is change. We can long for the good old days, but they weren’t really that good, and they aren’t coming back. Now would be the time to move forward.