What theft PNWRMNM? Amtrak pays a fee to the private freight companies to use their railroad tracks, and a very nice bonus if the trains arrive on time 90% through the private’s dispatching. Yes, the privates could earn more if they dispatched their own freight train through a slot instead of an Amtrak train. However, I don’t see the railroads giving back any FRA funds provided by the feds… I don’t see the railroads giving back their federal gasoline tax exemptions either…
Have you seen Amtrak’s budget? Take a look at it… Amtrak spends millions to use the right of way of the private railroads. Amtrak spends millions leasing former private railroads depots and stations. Amtrak spends millions contributing to the railroad workers retirement fund, the same one the privates use.
Amtrak also owns some right of way, the all important NEC. Amtrak needs to spend billions to get this track up to snuff, including rebuilding some tunnels and draw bridges along that route. Congress was supposed to have funded this ten years ago when Amtrak contracted out to lease the Acelas. Well, Congress hasn’t…
Since you are so opposed to funding the upkeep of Amtrak’s own tracks, I supposed I will have to be opposed to funding the maintanence of any highways you use daily… WE’LL SEE HOW LONG YOUR ROADS LAST!
Those opposed to Amtrak funding like to show a myth about how much cheaper it is to fly from Phoenix to Orlando. What they never show is how much cheaper it is to ride a train from Alpine Texas to Orlando… Frankly, it is more expensive to fly into small towns than it is to ride Amtrak half way across America… And I don’t see the airlines changing their ticket prices policies any…
Amtrak pays only avoidable costs to freight railroads. The on time bonus is peanuts compared to what Amtrak costs in freight train delays. They made no contribution to the joint costs of keeping the railroad in business. They are robbers!
Imagine the Government told you you had to take in a boarder. They will get one of your bedrooms which you do not need because your kid just left for college. They get to use the kitchen whenever they want and use the phone whenever they want and invite in whomever and whenever they want. For this you will be paid avoidable cost. What is your avoidable cost?? You are already paying the mortgage and taxes so that is not avoidable. Maybe they use a few more gallons of water and a bit of electricity, so the govt will pay you $25 a month. Of course if you dont keep the house clean enough for them, they will female dog and moan and all thier friends will call you a dirty rotten, you fill in the rest. How would you like that deal? Amtrak is in the position of the favored family and the freight railroads are in your shoes.
On the NEC the shoe is on the other foot. The commuters pay Amtrak only avoidable cost. That was one of the things the commission, sorry I forgot the name, that formally declared that Amtrak would never make money pointed out. They claim Amtrak gets stuck for $500 million a year on this account. That is probably true and probably in the ball park of what the freight railroads get stuck supporting Amtrak.
I think an honest case can be made for the NEC. I can see no case for robbing the freight railroads to support Amtrak.
Second point. Amtrak will never be able to do the high speed rail that you so ardently desire. They have neither the skill nor the will. If that is what you want, make an honest case for the NEC with a new owner who can charge the commuters market rates. Then you have a chance to expand on a rational basis. Amtrak is an albatros.
The comments you make about maintenance cost and facilities/ plant rental is 100% true, but I wouldn’t go so far as to call the travel cost differential a “myth”, case in point, the “LA.- Ft Wayne Indiana” trip we talked about earlier.
Ft Wayne IS a smaller town, and the round trip airfare was $350.00 and connected my ACTUAL destinations within that price.
Amtrak wanted $325.00 rountrip for coach (add a sleeper and the cost skyrocked) took 6 days instead of 2, and dropped me off 32 miles out in the boonies.
This latter item gives thekiss of death to your representation, as even if I give it the most liberal of ground, that add on of roundtrip shuttle adds more than $25 to the farebox price, andall you will find at the Waterloo In “amtrak station” is a concrete ramp, a rain shield, and a pay phone (with no phonebook) just try and turn that into a rental car at 11 PM, I dare ya. No cab service in Waterloo, they roll up the sidewalk at sundown and put it away in this town of 2,200 people, so you are literally stuck in a corn field at midnight, unles you contract ahead with a shuttle, (hint for more than $25.00 round trip)
PNWRMNM: I, happen to think that Amtrak does have the skill and the will to do highspeed rail service. What would be useful to them and help them greatly would be the boost of money that they need from the government. If they had the money that they need they could fix track, upgrade service, and create a very efficient highspeed rail network throughout the northeast. If only they could get it I would be plenty happy, although I’m sure you would be spitting nails, since you’re so ready for Amtrak to just leave this country and never come back.
I assure you that without Amtrak this country would not be the same. Railservice is essential in my opinion and in the opinions of many others. We should do everything we can to save Amtrak instead of saying that we wouldn’t mind if it went away.
Those who wi***o kill Amtrak have done their very best to underfund it. They will probably get their wish when the bridges fall from a lack of maintanence on the NEC. Amtrak has to purchase/lease specially made electric locomotives because the electric lines of the NEC have 3 different voltages. Any other country with high speed rail would have already made necessary changes to operate on only one voltage.
Yes, Fort Wayne is a small city. However, in your presentation Los Angeles isn’t. If I were you I would check the airfares from say Santa Barbara to Fort Wayne to understand what I meant about flying to and from small cities. Obviously, you haven’t a clue… In my internet search, Expedia, the cheapest fare is $570 on the redeye with connections in Los Angeles and Chicago for a 9 hour flight later this week without a Saturday night layover, short notice. Ahhhhhhhhhh, big cities have cheaper rates than smaller cities and towns… Makes you wonder what the price of a flight from Salt Lake City to Fort Wayne is…the cheapest I found was $530… Just living in Los Angeles provides airfares $200 less than living in Salt Lake City or Santa Barbara… We can play this game forever… Notice that those opposed to Amtrak always use flights connecting the big cities… never the smaller cities in both cases…
Just like American politicians, you are avoiding the question and thereby withholding the “support” which a nationalized passenger rail system (AMTRAK) urgently needs.
Its starting to be gridlock out there on the Interstate highways. Probably the “post 911” consciousness is the biggest cause – people are driving instead of flying.
AMTRAK exists. It needs fixing. It presently has its first decent manager in years. With adequate funds for modernization, added equipment and improved bribes for the class 1s, America could restore a decent passenger rail network, in pretty short order.
Note that Florida is moving ahead with its Tampa to Orlando system – but it will take the Feds (i.e. AMTRAK) to bring that to e.g. Atlanta – which makes all the sense in the world.
Don, I think you are being unkind in your assesment of my “not having a clue” and I’ll tell ya, if it’s really a flame war ya want, pack a lunch, as I have formidable skilz as a troll. Don’t threaten me with a good time.(Just let me know, I’ll be there)
And, you are extremely misguided in your innuendo that I might be “anti Amtrak” as I assure you that is not the case, I am anti-nonsense. And the pricing policy I experianced with Amtrak when first hoping to book a trip via rail with sleeper service WAS PURE NONSENSE. Sorry I can’t hold a grudge against only parti
I think a quick read of the various posts above will illustrate one thing, and, in truth, one thing only: moving people from point A to point B is a very highly political, and very highly personal, topic.
It is impossible, or virtually so, to obtain a dollar figure for each mode of transportation mentioned above (highway, rail, air) on a fully comparable basis. The various financing arrangements are complex beyond belief; the various hidden subisdies boggle the imagination – in ALL the modes. Where it is most obvious is with air fares: is the ‘true’ cost of a flight from city A to city B (pick any pair, large or small) what you can find on Travelocity three months out? What you can get on Orbitz, a week out (but with a Sunday stay)? What you would pay if you showed up at the terminal three hours in advance for a business trip? You tell me, gentlemen – I haven’t a clue. But I can tell you the numbers differ by a factor of 10… and how much of my income tax should I add in for support of the air traffic system? And my local property tax (or somebody else’s) for the airport? And highway to get to the airport?
Is the ‘true’ cost of my bus ticket what Greyhound charges me? Or should I add in the subsidies for the highway and fuel?
The same thing is true of Amtrak – except, of course, that it pays taxes to local communities, rather than being paid by them (in most cases!) – either directly or indirectly – but there are lots of subisidies there, too.
You will never get agreement on the economics. You will probably never get agreement on the value to the community.
Further, it is unlikely that any amount of shouting or pulpit pounding will change the minds of most folks.
I support all passenger rail, including Amtrak. However I have a question.
I used to live in Germany. The Deutsche Bahn (their national railway) had a perfect network. Extremely high frequencies of regional and HSR long distance trains. Great service, too. On top of that, the ticket prices were dirt cheap! The most memorable example of the inexpensive price was the weekend pacakge. 1 family (2 adults and 3 children), any regional train (does not exeed the speed of 160km/h) in Germany, Saturday and Sunday…only 15 Deutsche Marks (less than 10 dollars!!!). My point is, how can they charge so little and work out fine, and passenger rail in North America cost so much and still have financial problems?
The only difference I can think of…Deutsche Bahn is private. But doesn’t that mean Amtrak gets more government funding?
I know, I sound naive, but could someone please explain this to me?
[:I] LOL! this is relaxed for me…I just have a strict set of ethics when it comes to someone trying to hardnose me, and frame concepts as mine of origin when such is not at all the case [;)]
Just for the record, in FY 2002, Amtrak paid $102 Million in “rental” fees for the use of private railroad tracks. Does that cover the marginal cost? Depends. Wear on the rails-probably. Dispatching costs-maybe, if absent Amtrak, dispatcher roster could be reduced. Extra fuel and crew cost for the delay of freight trains-maybe not, that would depend on the frequency of occurance. Loss of a slot that could be used by another freight train-that’s an oppurtunity cost, and depends on the the new train itself turning a profit. By the way, BNSF CEO Matt Rose said the $20 million they picked up in Amtrak on time bonuses just took discipline and was worth 3 cents a share to the BNSF owners. Doesn’t sound like “I’ve been robbed” to me.
I support AMTRAK but railfans alone can’t help it. I agree with TheAntiGates; the prices are somewhat high especially if you get sleeping car “accomadations”. And then I found out later that its still not enough because the Govt. has to subsidize “X” amount of dollars for what every passenger pays. I still would want it around, but it needs work.
While the fun of foums is the argument, arguing the all merits of one mode of transport over the other would probably exceed all the space on this server and several others. Bottom line, I think, is when a person is ready to go some where, two primary thoughts go in, convenience (departure time and travel time) and cost-make that out of pocket cost. Usually it private vehicle vs. bus, rail or air. I make occasional trips from Southern Wisconsin to Washington, DC. I have in the past, and probably will in the future choose any of three of the four modes. If the only choice is bus, I’d rather walk. I think we would all like to see better service, probably at lower cost, on any mode, but don’t plan on finding that under the tree this Christmas. By the way, for the greatest convenience, the limo-private jet combo is absolutly the best for 100-150 miles and up, although it is a little pricey.
PNWRMNM stated that AMTRAK causes freight delays, but who is complaining about AMTRAK delays. The Capitol Limited passes through my town on CSX tracks, but runs through eastbound (From Chicago) on average 2 hours late because CSX owns all the track. There have also been many days where it came through around 9 pm (Its due at 11 am)!
Back to cpbloom. Your’e right, and especially if the person is employed full time. Vacation days and holidays are precious and are not to be wasted for travel time on longer trips. However, in many cases, there is an automatic assumption that use of the personal vehicle is faster than the train. For example, if you are in good health, able to drive 14 straight hours with no more than three 10 minute stops, you might beat the time of Capital Limited from Chicago to DC.
ICEtrain. I may be wrong, but I think the German Government built the railroads and bought the equipment. If not, Senator McCain, (R, AZ) would replace that service for the Sunset Limited as the poster boy for his let’s stop wasting government money on passenger trains campaign.
I support Amtrak . . with my own dollars, by purchasing tickets and riding it. One way to think of it: we have basically 2 choices in this country if we want to travel - flying or driving. Passenger rail presents a third choice in the transport marketplace. So does The bus, but that’s outside the scope here. Let me put it this way: would you go to the ice cream store that offered only two flavors, or would you like to have the option to have a store thaqt offered more than 2 flavors, with the chance to choose between the stores. If you are like most people, they would like to have more choices in the marketplace.
Passenger rail, in the form of Amtrak, represents a third choice. I take the trains when the opportunity presents itself. The accomodations may be spartan, or utilitarian, but it is a valid choice for me at times. As for the air vs rail arguement: it would cost me several hundred dollars just to go from MSP - MSN via air, while amtrak offers a price of under $100, round trip.
Amrtak is the result of 125 years of govt. schizophernia. Since the 1880’s they have regulated railroad rates to a greater or lesser degree. They have prevented the carriers from exiting unprofitable services - read passenger here, and worst of all have poured untold billitions of capital investment into competitive modes, barge, air, highway. Rail Passenger Miles peaked about 1920. Our Federal highway building program started in 1917. Do you think that is a co-incidence?
I believe that German Railways are state owned. I know that Germany was an economic wreck in 1945. I suspect that the Germans were smart enough to figure out that they could fix up their railroads a lot cheaper than build new roads, and would get a lot more transportation for the Mark.
The US Govt on the other hand boured billions, now hundreds of billions into highways and rode the PRR and NYC into bankruptcy. Only when faced with no more stockholder’s money to steal and the real threat of shutdown did they relax their stranglehold and take the Northeast Corridor.
The problem with the NEC is lack of investment. You can date it to WWII. Even the management of the railroads figured out by 1960 that the passenger train would never pay. Remeber the Interstate higway act was 1957 or 1958. Imagine what the NEC would be if the money that went into I-95 had gone into the NEC. The problem is we have been rich and stupid. We have invested many hundreds of billions in nonrail modes and we have a most ineffecient and inneffective transportation system.
The problem is no body even knows what we did, including most of you, who should know if anybody would.
You will not see decent passenger service in this country until our entire system of subsidy collapses. Amtrak is just the poster child. Even some politicians can see that it makes no sense. Do I think they will pull the plug? NO, they are too committed to the status quo, even if it makes no sense.
Deutsche Bahn passenger service, while run by a private entity, is heavily subsidised both by the Federal and Lande parliaments. Ditto UK, France, etc. etc. etc.