In the current Trains Karl Zimmermann in Ageless Grand Central Kicks Off Its Second Century reminds us that most of the New Haven’s named trains (such as the “Merchants Limited” and the “Yankee Clipper)” ran between New York and Boston. One change Amtrak made is that almost all northeast corridor trains rum from Boston to Washington and a number run beyond Washington. Of course the Pennsylvania ran its own New York and Washington Service. An advantage Amtrak gives us is that it is never necessary to change stations in New York. (Does those red and green lights at Times Square that lead you to the Grand Central Shuttle still exist?)
No doubt never having to change stations is an improvement; yet it seems to me that reaching the Shore Line from Grand Central Terminal was faster than the route from Pennsylvania Station over the Hell Gate Bridge, even when I am lucky and the bridge is closed to ships. I wonder if there is any possible way to have a direct connection between NYP and GCT. Does anyone know if this could be accomplished?
Oh, there has been talk of this for years…The main problem that (didn’t) surfaced over the years was all the tunnels for subways, sewers, water, telephone, electricity, heat, and whatever else meant that either they would have to be altered, moved. or blocked (based on what they know existed, or knew existed, or what they feared existed but a lot of what they have no idea exists!) and the number of deep cellars and foundations of skyscrapers which can be up to a third the height of the building, so the line would have to go so much deeper than the distance would actually allow.
As for how long it took from the city to New Rochelle where the line from GCT met the line from NYP, it is 16.3 miles from GCT AND 18.8 miles from NYP. Hell Gate bridge itself is not movable but the Pelham Bridge is and is about 3 and a half miles east of Hell Gate.
So I guess I’ll have to accept that fact that I’ll never again board an Amtrak train to New England at GCT. I’ll have to find another reason to go there.
As long as the Hell Gate Bridge remains closed I’ll try not to complain.
Don’t be too sure…I just noted on a post that the only thing constant in railroading are the gauge of the track and red means stop. You can go from GCT to Stamford, Bridgeport or New Haven on MNRR and change to Amtrak at those stations on select trains.
As for a reason to go to GCT! Why do you need a reason? It is a destination building in itself. Plus on Feb 1st this year, the eve of the building’s 100 Anniversary, there is a special ceremony and rededication with many special days and events in celebration throughout the year. But there really is so much to the building to view and marvel at in the architecture and composition itself, the MTA museum, great and not so great places to eat.
And you can join us for one of the Ridewithmehenry trips we’ll be taking out of there. Right now I’d like to schedule a Sat. Feb 2nd trip in celebration of the 200th Anniversary date. Probably via NJT from Denville to NYP, subway to GCT and up the Harlem Div to Wassaic and back. I’ve got several reasons for that particular trip which was seminal in my Ridewithmehenry activity because of an aunt who had a farm near Wingdale and my wife’s great grandfather being the construction engineer from Dover Plains to Chatham!
Actually, I was in GCT in November, Henry. There was an exhibition of Winston Churchill’s writing at the Morgan Library which is on Madison Avenue and 36th Street, just a few blocks away. My first impression was that this is a food court, not a railroad station. Then I went upstairs and saw that it is pretty much the same as always but of course much improved. I remember when it sank so low than when there were problems with doors instead of repairing the door they simply bolted a board over it to people could not use it.
Right now I am booked up for February 2 but if something happens I’ll keep your opportunity in mind.
Are the rail levels at GCT and Penn Station at or near the same grade levels? Would a tunnel between the two be roughly level or would there be a severe grade involved (if all the other Utilities & Subways and any other underground impediments to a tunnel be removed).
Subways, water mains, power lines, telephone lines, sewers, steam pipes, and skyscraper cellars equal to up to a third of the height above ground. Any connection between the two stations would have to negotiate all that plus a few surprises and do it at such a grade down and under and up that it would be impossible in the short distance. Just try to remove one subway line. Or electric. Or telephone. Not worth the fight or the engineering expense much less the actual construction. There are also pockets of quick sand and lots of bed rock.
Grand Central Terminal has two levels of tracks, both underground but it does not use any tunnels in Manhattan. Pennsylvania Station has one level of underground tracks and two tunnels, one under the Hudson River and one under the East River. (The Hudson River Tunnel has two bores; I’m not sure about the East River Tunnel.) At one point there was a lot of discussion of this in the newspapers. There are a lot of things in the way of any tunnel but I don’t recall any change of grade problems being reported. That is all of the rather sketchy information I have.
Two bores under the North River, four bores under the East River. But the depth needed to get between the two stations has often been discussed and was especially so mentioned when the tunnel project Christie killed was being debated. The more time goes on the more difficult it becomes to deal with the concept. There would have to be so much digging and exploding and shoring up and shielding…I bet if you started today the final lawsuit allowing you to proceed won’t be settled until 2125!
The tunnel project Christie killed did not include a connection to GCT. It didn’t even connect with the tracks in NYP. Some otherwise supportive people were cool to it because of the second feature. They envisioned the day when you could get on an NJT train and have a one seat ride as far as New Haven.
Even with its limitations a lot of people were stunned when the project was cancelled and still believe canceling it was a big mistake. Christie argued that New Jersey would be liable for all cost over runs. It later turned out New Jersey would have been liable for about 14 per cent of cost over runs at most and even that amount would have been negotiable.
It seems to me that the real problem lies with the New York Central and Hudson River Railroads who were unwilling to link up. To its credit the Pennsylvania did arrange to link up with the New Haven via the Hell Gate Bridge. That link still works well as long as the bridge is closed when your train approaches. I don’t know if the Pennsy would have been willing to link to the NYC given the relations between them but they did show good faith toward the New Haven.
I think we should build an underground rail connection between the two stations. And I think we should fund it by requiring you to live in the concourses of the two stations collecting money from travelers until you have collected enough money to fund the whole project.
With your commitment to rail transportation, Henry, I am confident you would be able to do it. And when it was all done and the tunnel built we would pull down Cornelius Vanderbilt’s statue and replace it with a statue of Henry.
I used the New Haven line at least 400 times between 1949 and 1996, and never once was held up by a boat either on the line to GCT or the Hell Gate route. It must happen very rarely. Waiting for traffic outside New Rochelle did happen on occasion, and a few times southbound at Mott Haven, where I could see the northbound Hudson Div train cutting across in front of us.
The M5 bus is a direct connection. Works well when there is no rush hour traffic.
Isn’t the problem of any RR tunnel Penn station - Grand Central going to be held up until the new water tunnel is complete ? ( around 2022 ? ) My understanding is New York city officials thinks that any construction near the old water tunnel might cause it to collaspe ?
I can’t match your 400 times record but in the late 50’s and 60’s I changed stations many times, occasionally walking and usually by subway. But I never knew about the M5 bus. Thanks for the information.