Agreed. I have to believe that rocks on the windshield are fairly common - maybe not every day, but often enough. Don’t some of those NEC locomotives have grates over the windshields?
Most chemicals that might have been thrown on the locomotive would leave a residue. I’m sure that’s been considered and dealt with.
I’m satisfied to wait for something from NTSB.
In the meantime, we have an engineer who, for reasons unknown (and he’s not offering any), was running well over the speed limit, even without the 50 MPH curve. Pending the ruling out of any medical problems, it’s pretty much on him.
To clarify: the theory is that the engineer opened the throttle to accelerate the train, and a projectile compromised the windshield. The engineer hit the floor with the throttle still open, allowing the train to reach 106 MPH before he returned to his seat and applied the emergency brakes.
I am skeptical of this theory, and agree that it is best to wait for the NTSB report.
“The Amtrak train that derailed along the nation’s busiest tracks may have been struck by an object in the moments before it crashed, investigators said Friday, raising new questions about the deadly accident.”
There is more to come in the days ahead, leading up to the NTSB report. What I have found very troubling is the quick, snap judgement of the media and some politicians. Example, CNN day 1 was all over the poor shape of the rails since the rail industry was declining and not one made “heavy rail” any more. Next day it is a party in congress fault for cutting Amtrak budgets over the last 40 years. The hoot was the call for privatization of rail travel. Additional to calling out the other “Amtrak” accident at this location back in 1943 in which 79 lives were lost (due to a hotbox.) The point being is this quick to blame attitude that has surfaced in the last two years.
My own speculation to my spouse (a CNN junkie) this could have been an unknown software defect (have 30+ years in the IT field) or a mechanical defect. As facts come in, th
A crew member on #188 has reported to the NTSB radio traffic between the engineers of Amtrak #188 and Septa #769 just before the derailment that both trains were hit by projectiles in the N Philadelphia area. The NTSB has called in the FBI to investigate all three incidents.
BTW… We only know that Amtrak #188 had an emergency braking application directly before it derailed. I haven’t seen or read anything on how #188 went into emergency. Was it the engineer? Or, was it a penalty brake application for no response to the controls and / or alerter?
Wow, all this talk about suspicious chemicals in the loco cab. IMO some posters need to back off on the medical weed, air out their home longer after the fumigation treatment or just stop watching the Faux News Channel. Now back to the serious subject of this topic …
There has been mention here and on The Other forum about ‘projectiles’ possibly impacting the cab. I discovered this high resolution photo and it clearly shows what appear to be impact ‘craters’ from small diameter, roundish objects.
The damage to the very left pane could be explained by post-derailment impact, but I hope the NTSB finds a plausible cause of those craters. If they occurred pre-derailment, that would definitely be ‘distracting’. It would take a lot of energy to make divits in that thick, no-ghetto-grille-required, windscreen.
In case you hadn’t noticed, the local Philly media has shied away from references to gunfire, mustn’t offend the fine residents of the North side.
Gentlemen, recently retired and long out of touch with rules changes but aware of the trend toward single operators in the cab (on short lines for a whole train), along such a busy corridor and with passengers not freight behind the locomotive, was there no second man in the left hand seat? On several trips west, SW Chief, Texas Eagle, Sunset Ltd., at crew change stops I always saw two men getting out of the cab, replaced by a fresh two man crew. And I assume there is still a dead man’s pedal in each locomotive? If I recall correctly, even the Chicago-Milwaukee runs have two men up front, no?
I thought those impacts on the windshield might be rocks as well BUT THEN, they all have consistent rings around them and are the same size. Meaning the rocks striking the windshield would likely be the same shape and size and traveling at relatively the same speed upon impact. They do look like bullet holes to me. Additionally, shouldn’t the windshield be safety glass and able to take a rock impact without damage up to a specific size?
Last but not least, I thought some of the ABB AEM7’s had steel grates over the windshield, why are they absent on this locomotive, if is cleared for high speed service?
Anyone heard anything about the condition of the locomotive? While perhaps a bit premature just a few days after the derailment, I’m assuming despite its solid looking shape, that its future is anything but assured with how they build contemporary passenger locomotives to absorb the energy during an incident to protect the crew.
NJTransit had to write off a nearly new locomotive a year ago after a truck collision, despite the only damage evident from the exterior to the average person being some cosmetic nose damage that in past years would quicky be rectified.
I thought the ‘ghetto bars’ were long gone from Amtrak locomotives (replaced by a combination of better ‘armored’ glass and frames in the windshields, and better security on bridges and overlooks). They are a very poor solution on high-speed trains: severe turbulence and air resistance, and birds get jammed in the spaces and then start to decompose because no one wants to deal with them…
Apparently part of the problem was that clever folks would tie rocks or bricks to a rope “just the right length”, hang it down there, and then presumably move to an innocent-seeming location to watch the ensuing “fun”. The right solution to this wasn’t cheap grilles over the windshields, it was better security and grates/fences on the bridges. Of course, getting the states and municipalities involved to foot the bill for that was a lot more involved than a few bits of ironmongery…
I’m sure that somewhere there is a Web-accessible spec for how strong the ACS-64 windshield is, and what sort of tests the design had to pass. It’s going to be interesting to see what happens when the windshields have to be made like the teller glass at Federal Credit Unions or the ports in a DSRV … which may be the next step if it turns out a projectile weapon was used in this incident.
The system is not set up to induce braking northbound past SHORE, .3 miles south (west) of the curve, or about 13 seconds at track speed. In an ironic twist, southbound prior to the curve a cab signal drop is in place, so if this train had been headed southbound, it probably wouldn’t have occurred. Southbound heading into the curve trains would be decelerating from 90-110 mph to 50 mph, so the drop was put in. Northbound, officials felt there was no need, as trains heading into the curve wouldn’t be traveling so fast.
A couple hours after the accident, on another railroad forum, someone posted a tweet by a guy with a screen shot he took from the Amtrak Tracker website (which allows people to track the progress of their train). It posted the train’s speed limit at 106mph as it entered the curve, but I didn’t believe it (nor did anyone else at the time), as I have seen hundreds of trains go through that curve and no train was anywhere close to that speed to even be doing that by accident.
As for why the system did not alert the engineer or induce a penalty braking application west of SHORE (as the engineer was speeding there too, apparently it can take up to 60 seconds before penalty applications are made. At 70mph, it could take 25-35 secs before the alerter in the cab goes off, then 10 seconds of a visual alarm, followed by 10 seconds of an audible alarm, and then after that the alarm relay is reset and penalty braking applications are made.
So, the windshield could have been shot at, causing the engineer to hit the deck. 50-60 secs later, the alerter goes off, rousing Mr. Bostian to the controls where he applies the brakes, but it is too late.
If the engineer was ‘frazzled’ by having to rely on wayside signals account cab signal failure - I guess every other engineer in the country that operates without cab signals is equally ‘frazzled’ all the time.
One thing to remember about PTC - it will fail and trains will still have to be moved, unless one wants (or gets required) to shut down an entire railroad segment and all it’s trains account the failure of one.
