Another black eye for EMD.

Trains Magazine General Discussion
21

OK.

You can trade in your SD70M-2 for a vintage B23-7, with the toilet compartment vent right in front of the horn. Chem toilet with no forced ventilation. Rusted out cab walls. Small windows. Tiny, narrow cab doors that need to be slammed shut (and still leak air and noise. 85dB in run 8 interior noise (if you keep the windows shut). Two forced air heaters w/o ducting - that have “hi” and “low” setting (and maybe sidewall strip heaters, if you are lucky". An a control stand so junked up with rattling, bent up, “add on” boxes that make you have to stand up to see the conductor ('cause you’ll never hear his snoring…) And a carbody guaranteed to get you completely filthy if you try the engineer’s side rear walkway past the radiator cab.

Did I miss anything?

22

Oh yea, am I in a modelers club? I wasn’t aware. No. I am in a historical society? No. I dont know why you are being such a jerk about this. I never said it was set in stone, I merely said this is what I had heard about the PRE-isolated cab SD70ACe and M-2’s.

Well here you go investigator Ed, this is where I got it from: [http://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19921&p=166450#p166450](http://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19921&p=166450 / p166450)

Uphogger, I’m trying but…

Ok,

We can start at the bottom and work our way up…

Lets see, another “railfan forum” is your credible source?

That’s like claiming your are in prison because you were framed, and your proof being all the other prison inmates say they were framed too!

How about a technical bulletin, or a general order from BNSF, maybe a general notice, something actually issued by the railroad you mentioned, instead of a rumor running on another forum.

No, not investigator Ed, it was CSI Blysard…Child Support Investigator, Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas.

I left there to go railroading.

No, you didn’t say it was set in stone, you said it was a black eye for EMD, but you are saying this with no creditable proof, and zero real life experience using the machine in question, yet you imply or present it as if it was a established fact.

The legal folks at EMD may take issue with the way you present this and the title of your post.

“Jerkoff”…hummm, I was expecting much better of you, but then , considering your age and such, well, we will just let your words speak for themselves and for you and you attitude.

http://www.missabe.com/cms/, your not the Max Medlin mentioned here?

23

Well I do take offense to the fact that you were trying to belittle me by saying "oh he only works for a historical society or model RR club, which is not true) I just took your post as making fun of me. I do not take kindly to that. And then you say I make statements which will get kids killed? What the hell?

Conductor/Brakeman/Mechanic

Duluth and North Shore Railway

We handle passenger and freight operations in northern MN.

Sure we aren’t the Houston Port Terminal Railroad or the BNSF, but you know what? I am damn proud of the job we do operating our freight and passenger trains over the road safely and efficiently. I may not know as much as Ed does about flat switching, or as much as Zug knows about running a train, but I am always trying to learn more and become a better crew member.

6+ years.

Duluth, MN

SD70ACe’s ridden in: 5.

Sorry I just reposted something that is blazing across the internet, thought some people might be interested.

Not trying to argue or start a fight here, but I felt like your post was very rude and arrogant Ed, which I know you are not. Your a great guy from what I see. I just did not expect to get jumped on like that for a little posting which people do all the time.

24

Hmm…

25

Well, you may not believe it, but one Class one did try. Did we get it all right? No. But, not from lack of effort and the guy leading the way in the Mechanical Dept was a former loco engineer. Conrail did try very hard to get the best possible cab conditions for the crew. We went hunting for better seats, better toilet compartments, better HVAC, better ergonomics, better controls and displays, lower noise and vibration (who was first with isolated cabs???), better end steps, a more pleasing interior paint, heck, even a cup holder for the coffee cup.- - and passed every change by the general chairmen of the unions.

Yeah, the desktop controller turned out to be a dud, but it wasn’t from lack of trying…

We also spent some serious money ride quality testing every new locomotive model and trying to fix old dogs like B36-7s. Not everything worked out, but it wasn’t from lack of trying.

26

There you go. Eat your heart out:

On 12-2-10 BNSF issued General Notice 938 which reads in part:
The following “North American Cab” locomotives are not suitable for lead or
(crew) deadhead service:

BNSF 9330-9399
NS 2649-2778
CSXT 4831-4850
UP 8309-8620
KCS 3997-3999
KCS 4030-4315
KCS 8600-8629
MRL 4300-4315
FEC 100-103
CN 8000-8024

27

Just for the record (since everyone else is doing it) - I never had a SD70Ace as a leader. I think I had a UP one as a trailer one time. I remember it was brand spanking new and the cab smelled like paint. The leader was a plain jane UP 70M I believe.

I’m starting my 5th year on the RR… still don’t know much about anything. Everything I say is strictly my personal opinion.

28

Fantastic…

Had you originally posted the above, followed by a request for others to find out what they know about the restrictions, noting that you had seen this on a few other forums as well, you would have a top notch discussion going, along with guys like Paul North, Zug, me, and a bunch of others researching and contacting their sources/friends in the industry to find out why.

If I see the BNSF trainmaster today, I will ask him what the story is, although he might tell me to screw myself, I called down a friend of his for shoving blind in North Yard and it got pretty heated.

Besides, I cant “eat my heart out”…its too darn cold and I need my heart to keep pumping coffee to the rest of my body.

Good deal, now I know you have enough experience to have a good understanding of railroading, plus you have me by 2 SD70ACEs ridden!.

So, your railroad is not the PTRA, big deal, it’s a railroad, and you do stuff we don’t, like handle passengers.

You should be proud of your railroad, your job and your performance, too many guys out here simply show up for the paycheck and have no real pride in our history, if you paid them as well they would go roof houses or mow lawns with the same lack of enthusiasm.

I was not attacking you on a personal level, and if I gave that impression, my apologies.

What I was trying to do was make you think about what you post and get you to read your posting from another perspective.

Hoping to get you to start contributing to the forum in a manner that gets the discussions back to trains and railroading, instead of the “I heard from my second cousin that he head from his surfing buddy that…”

So much of that stuff and the political agenda of a small group have pretty much run the real railroaders away from this forum, which is a shame.

Three years ago, there were at least 15 working railroaders here, now…?

Don’t sweat the “jerkf” comment, I have pretty thick skin, grew up around Navy non

29

Apparently NS thinks their SD70M-2s are OK to lead…http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=347743&nseq=2

I wonder what the issue is?

30

Don, I’m still laughing over that one. That photo is just a week old - Dec. 4, 2010 - and shows NS 2770 - which is within the list above - leading a certain train solo. I dunno - maybe that one’s the exception that proves the rule ? Stay tuned, I suppose . . .[:-^]

ed and coborn35 - kudos to both of you for a good job of regaining control of this thread, which for a while sure seemed headed downhill at runaway speed. If we’re ever able to get together at the same time and place, I’ll buy the coffee/ beer/ whatever . . . [swg]

For the record - since it’s presently not noted there - it now seems that coborn35 has gone back to his Original Post and edited it to include the above-referenced BNSF General Order in place of the original message. Which is fine - it’s just that anyone new to this thread would be wondering what the debate is about, if they didn’t realize that OP had been updated with that much more authoritative information.

ed, it would be interesting to learn what BNSF’s rationale is for that restriction. I wonder if it will cause any hassles with consist make-up, esp. for run-through power ?

You’ll probably get some bluff and bluster from the BNSF TM, to try to ‘save face’ for his crew and himself . . . you’re in Texas, right ? [swg] But we all know the snappy retort is “Well, how would you feel if they’d hit someone or something ? Be glad we caught it now.” If you ever read the articles by former MoPac TM W.M. “Mike” Adams in Trains in the 1980’s or so - esp. the one on how tests held the railroad together - his philosophy was basically to: come down hard on little errors, to prevent them from growing into big errors; to show the crews that you’re serious about safety, and let th

31

[quote user=“edblysard”]

Fantastic…

Had you originally posted the above, followed by a request for others to find out what they know about the restrictions, noting that you had seen this on a few other forums as well, you would have a top notch discussion going, along with guys like Paul North, Zug, me, and a bunch of others researching and contacting their sources/friends in the industry to find out why.

If I see the BNSF trainmaster today, I will ask him what the story is, although he might tell me to screw myself, I called down a friend of his for shoving blind in North Yard and it got pretty heated.

Besides, I cant “eat my heart out”…its too darn cold and I need my heart to keep pumping coffee to the rest of my body.

Good deal, now I know you have enough experience to have a good understanding of railroading, plus you have me by 2 SD70ACEs ridden!.

So, your railroad is not the PTRA, big deal, it’s a railroad, and you do stuff we don’t, like handle passengers.

You should be proud of your railroad, your job and your performance, too many guys out here simply show up for the paycheck and have no real pride in our history, if you paid them as well they would go roof houses or mow lawns with the same lack of enthusiasm.

I was not attacking you on a personal level, and if I gave that impression, my apologies.

What I was trying to do was make you think about what you post and get you to read your posting from another perspective.

Hoping to get you to start contributing to the forum in a manner that gets the discussions back to trains and railroading, instead of the “I heard from my second cousin that he head from his surfing buddy that…”

So much of that stuff and the political agenda of a small group have pretty much run the real railroaders away from this forum, which is a shame.

Three years ago, there were at least 15 working railroaders here, now…?

Don’t sweat the “jerkf” comment, I have pretty th

32

From all the railfan rumor boards I read, I only ever saw BNSF as “banning” these clunkers from the lead. Of course from the notes posted here, BNSF doesn’t have too many of them, so it wouldn’t cause such an operational headache (as opposed to other railroads that roster quite a few, and they make up a good portion of engines that are cab signal / LSL equipped).

33

This kinda petty “I’m smarter than you…” crap is the reason I don’t come around here much anymore.

34

[sigh]

35

It does seem like there is something to this rattling cab reputation. I see the topic has been discussed on this forum before. It would be interesting if someone could post some engineering illustrations of how an isolated cab is made and mounted. If I understand it correctly, the isolated cab is supposed to be quieter and easier riding. You would think that EMD knows everything about cab design and construction. So I wonder if the quest for a more comfortable cab has led to over engineering the cab in a way that has made it difficult to manufacture.

I also wonder if putting a cab on cushions or springs might allow that cab to resonate easier to the harmonics of the prime mover. If so, you would end up with more engine vibration in the cab instead of less. At the same time, though, the springs or cushions would dampen out shocks and vibrations coming through the locomotive from the track. If there is a problem, I am sure EMD will fix it, and it will eventually be clearly explained for the histo

36

That’s just way to cool!

At least someone out there besides my Mom thinks I’m smart!

37

Just thinking out loud:

When you isolate a cab from the harsh movement of the frame and equipment, you create high dynamic loading in the fasteners that connect the cab to the frame. They have to flex as the frame vibrates in relation to the more stationary cab. The cab remains more stationary because it is isolated from the slamming and banging of the frame, and from the working vibrations of the diesel engine prime mover. I assume these cabs are isolated by mounting them on springs or spring-like material.

Altogether, it seems like quite a challenge to isolate the locomotive cab. Maybe they should not try to isolate the whole cab, but rather, isolate the crew seats alone.

38

…As one looking in from outside…I really don’t see why it would take super engineering to design Locomotive cabs / via proper mounts, to be somewhat isolated from the riggers of the vibrating prime mover and all the running parts on a road of steel rails via steel wheels…

Most bodys of highway vehicles {production}, have properly designed mounts to do much the same thing. Motor mounts {automotive}, as well.

39

WOW Ed,

Not trying to start hard times or anything, but when did you get so acerbic? You usually impressed me as a guy who kept his composure. But now it almost looks like you’re egging it on?

40

The cabs are mounted on big rubber donuts. It’s done partially