The thread about the cost effectiveness of the Fast Tracks jigs seem to forget the cost of the point filing jig, the point soldering jig and the frog filing jig. These need to be purchased by themselves in order to use the CVT ties and that adds up to way more than $4.00 per turnout. And they only work with two or three sizes of turnout. I personally would like to build 5 turnouts for my yard ladder but find it too expensive per turnout.
I checked on the prices for these a while back and have to agree with you. They are not at all cost effective, but they DO make for some nice looking turnouts and track work.
You do NOT need any of these tools to make the CV turnouts. A hobby saw or rail cutters and a file are all you need. I want to buy one of these belt sanders before I try any more custom track work.
http://www.bestchoicemart.com/besa1x30hp13.html
I am I missing something here. The frog soldering jig is not a part of the Fast Tracks system and the point filing jig and the frog filing jig are the same tool.
Without the cost of the jigs my cost was way below commercial jigs of similar quality–which is the main point right there. There really is no commercial turnout that compares with the turnout you end up with. The Fast Tracks Jigs give you turnouts right to NMRA specs with much tighter tolerances than anything on the market.
I admit, I got into Fast Tracks to save money. Now I can’t picture going back because of the bullet-proof trackwork.
Another factor I don’t hear people talk about is that when you build a Fast Tracks turnout you leave several inches of track overhanging on each end of the turnouts. This allows you a lot of play in laying trackwork.
http://www.handlaidtrack.com/item.php?partno=AK-HO-T-6-ME83
$207 devided by 5 turnouts = $41.40/turnout. Now if you want to “pretend” that you didn’t spend $140 for jigs, then it comes down to $13.50/turnout. (without any shipping) No where near the super low $5 prices some folks claim. Didn’t see anything about spikes or an NMRA track gauge in there either. And then there’s the extra jig prices when you need 2 #8’s and 1 curved turnout. (Oh, wait…we’re pretending we’re not buying tools…)
If you buy the entire kit they offer, you get everything you need, less rail, to build 10 turnouts. (Excluding some hand tools.)
If you want to build more, just buy more rail and ties, and you are in business.
The jig itself is machined from a heavy plate of aluminum. Not some diecast or plastic thing. Aluminum, with substantial mass. The point and frog filing tool is tool grade steel. These things will last a long time. (Someone asked Tim that during a demo, and he said "if you can wear it out…)
These things are tools. Quality tools. We all know that the quality of your work is directly related to the quality of your tools. (And they are not made in China.)
Most of the people I hear talking about $4 per turnout are hand-layers. However, you are taking the prices from the kit and you can do better. First of all, you can save 10% off the top of the price of all jigs and materials. Send me a PM and I’ll tell you how.
Second of all, a big hunk of that cost is the Quick-Ties. Lop off those and you save another $6 per turnout. You can save further buying other than the smallest bundlesof materials which they list there.
Of course, you still have to buy the tools. There’s no getting around that. And unless you don’t care, you should factor that into the cost.
But then again, you have to weigh the quality. IF they cost the same as a $20 Peco turnout, which they clearly don’t, the Fast Tracks turnout is clearly superior and I would buy the FT over the Peco. But that is my assessment.
Loathar,
I think the lower price per turnout that others claim is beyond the intial “kit” that you get with the jigs and fixtures. Once you have the fixtures you need to build your specific turnout, it’s only the cost of rail, PC board, and railroad ties replacement. (And solder every once in a while.)
Yea, the intial cost is pricey. But, if you a have a number of the same turnouts to make for your layout, it IS more cost effective than buying commercial. And, you have to admit that, even $13.50 for a quality turnout that’s way better - both operationally and visually - than a commercial turnout, is STILL a bargain.
If you only need 5 turnouts or a lot of turnouts but of a variety of sizes, then it won’t be as cost-effective and buying them from someone else would be the way to go. There is a guy on eBay that sells FT turnouts, wyes, and crossovers at a reasonable price.
Tom
I guess I wasn’t very clear in what I was comparing cost-wise.
I was NOT saying it was only $4 per turnout. I was comparing the cost of a $4 “plastic ties jig” to a Fast Tracks aluminum jig fixture costing $110. In both cases it saves a lot of time to have the point filing jig ($45). The frog point soldering jig ($35) is optional – you can also just use some lines drawn on some soft pine and a few track spikes to give you a “poor man’s” soldering jig for frog points.
But let’s be perfectly clear here: how much is ultra-reliable trackwork worth? You will have to weigh that for yourself. Obviously if all you need is one turnout, then getting all these jigs, fixtures, and extra tools is going to make that one turnout cost you a fortune.
But then jigs and fixtures are not about doing one of anything. You get these tools when you have a lot of something to build and you want it to go fast and for each one to be dimensionally identical.
Here’s how it works for me – I’ve been in the hobby for 40 years and have run lots of trains on crappy trackwork (both my own and others) … and it’s not much fun. A good commercial turnout these days costs $15-$20 and will take up to 30 minutes of work to tune up. I’d pay as much as $10 more per turnout and up to a couple hours of my time to get turnouts that are ultra-reliable, because the joy and satisfaction from smooth operation is worth it.
If I do the math using CVT ties and just the point filing jig (let’s assume you want get in as cheaply as possible, so you will forget the point soldering jig), I get something like this:
#6 code 70, 83, 100 point filing jig: $45
A left and right set of CVT #6 code 83 ties to use as jigs: $8
Tools total: $53
Single turnout materials …
Plastic ties for one turnout: $4
Rail, PC ties, flux, solder (est.): $2
Let’s assume I would pay $25 per turnout to get an ultra-reliable one (I’d pay even more, b
Yeah, I understand all that. I just think it’s funny right on their site they quote a price ($16.50/turnout?) MINUS THE COST OF TOOLS. Sure, if your gonna do a layout with 30 #6’s, it’s not too bad. Throw in a couple of other odd sizes and your price jumps way back up again.
I personally don’t like the look of hand laid track because it usually lacks the detail that real tracks have. If your gonna go with the Proto87 tie plates, then your into a whole nother set of expensive tie plate jigs. (or go Looney Tunes doing them 1 at a time![:P])
I’m going to try a switching yard using Joes method with the CV tie strips and PC ties. He has solved a couple problems with the CV product that I had with them.
All the tie plate detail I want and none of the expensive jigs and tools I don’t want to buy.[2c]
If you don’t want to use them, don’t! I think the point where the cost gets to be around $10-$15 per turnout is around 20 turnouts, but I haven’t done the math in a while. AFter 30, they are cheaper than store bought. And way better, operationally. If you make enough of them, you can probably get close to $4, not with the CV kits, but with individual ties.
Hand laid switches MAY be way better, or they may be way worse than ubiqitous commercial switches. Individual milage varies.
And unless your time is free and abundant, the cost of a hand laid turnout is the most expensive option.
just my 2 cents
Joe Daddy
I could set up my own jig and it would work. But I have made turnouts and complex work without any of them fancy shtuph. Double slips. But for me I made it a point for high detail and thats my demand. Using CD switch kits. Very nice.
Totally build your own the cost drops drmatically, no fast tracks.
Just wood ties, spikes and rail. And the file, cutter, vise, needlenose pliers, gauge, make the switch and yer off.
What are CD switch kits?
Loathar,
Here’s a more tangible example. My layout is design with a fairly large yard using #5 turnouts. I’ve also decided that I’ll compromise and use #5 turnouts in sidings and industries to save a little space. I’ll need something around 40 turnouts. I just checked the Walthers website and they show as out of stock both left and right #5 turnouts in code 83. Divide the cost of the jigs (tools) by the 40+ turnouts I need and the cost of the jigs come down. Add in the factors of better operating characteristics, the ability to make either left or a right and that they are in essence “always in stock”. List price on a Walthers #5 is $18.98. I think with this volume I can justify the cost of the tools. Plus there’s a level of personal satisfaction in building it yourself, at least for me.
On a side note, I’ve always wondered if there was a way to make a FastTracks exchange network work. I need 3 #8 turnouts, it’s not cost effecient to buy the jigs, but I would be will to “rent” them for a small fee, and deposit. It’s an interesting concept. Think about it. DOuble slip, 60 deg crossing, 3 way turnouts - just rent the jig from someone. Recoup some of your cost and have access to some other jigs.
Joe Fugate, You got me sold, along with some other people. I think that the arguments that you bring up in this thread are solid. I will be getting a jig for my next layout.
Magnus
True. But if the time it takes to correct the deficiencies in a commercially-bought turnout is the same as what it takes to hand-lay a turnout start-to-finish, that cancels out when comparing the two.
Personally, I’ve found over the last ten years or so that I spend 30-45 minutes rewiring, cleaning up the frog, filing the points and repositioning/regauging the guard rails on a typical Shinohara/Walthers turnout to make it run as well as a turnout I’ve handlaid. That is a match for the amount of time it takes me to hand-lay a turnout. And that’s just for a layout using standard Code 110 wheelsets- it’s not like I’m trying to tighten things up to use Code 88 or P:87 wheelsets.
Part of it boils down to expectations of how well you want the track to work. In my case, the 30-45 minutes of work is there whether I buy a commercial turnout or I hand-lay it.
I’ve not tried the method Joe suggests using the Central Valley turnout tie strips, but the added detail over plain rail-on-wood-ties appeals to me enough that I’m planning to give it a try on a Free-Mo module I’m building.