Or you could read the description and find out it was taken right around the time he was hassled, but uploaded June 8th.
Z -
Good points all and validated by my own experiences on both sides of the cab for Class 1 (Conrail & NS) and Class 3 RRs in New York State.
Also, like brother North I am a member of the Bar (NY, PA and others) and a former prosecutor (ADA) and sworn police officer. I have also acted as a Criminal defense attorney for juveniles and adults. Being 16 years old in and of itself certainly does not constitute a defense to a crime or violation of law in New York. It may make a difference, depending upon the offense charged as to what court hears the charge.
Lets clear up a few things. First, being handcuffed is not the same as being arrested. You may be considered as being in custody, but being handcuffed is only one factor in that determination. Custody deals with a number of issues such as 4th Amendment and 5th Amendment rights concerning search and siezure and the right to counsel among other things. Being issued an Appearance Ticket (the Summons) is one type of arre
[quote user=“Paul_D_North_Jr”]
Some more details from the description at the video:
Metro North RR’s Harlem Line, North White Plains, NY - Virginia Ave. X-ing ?
The 4 police depts. were Greenburgh (the most aggressive), North Castle, Westchester Co., and MTA RR police. The aggressive officer repeats a couple times that his call was that the kid was kneeling on the tracks, which the kid denies - says he knows all the railroad rules, and volunteers at a museum.
I’m not sure that I’d say he was “arrested”, though it’s clear that he was “detained”. He posts: “I was issued a summons for “Unlawfully entering and remaining on RR property”.” This apparently happened Mon. 2 weeks ago, 6 / 6 / 2011 - posted 6 / 19/ 2011 - he says he has a hearing (“court case”) on July 12th.
Kid’s name appears to be Gregory Grice. Since he’s only 16, he’s a juvenile, so special rules and procedures will likely apply.
Might not be too hard of a charge to beat, if he wasn’t on or too close to the tracks when the police arrived - but if the police didn’t actually see him there, then who else is going to provide the necessary testimony that he was ? Then the next question to the officers ought to be, “Where are the RR R-O-W lines are, and how do you know that - beyond a reasonable doubt ?” If they don’t have a surveyor or a good plat handy to put essential fact into evidence, that ambiguousness - as can be seen in the still photos - will be fatal to the case, IMHO.
Must be a totally crime-free area if 4 police depts. have nothing better to do on a Monday afternoon than harass a 16-year old kid with a cell phone camera. I wonder if the aggressive officer feels real brave, macho, and good now about bullying a 16-year old kid to the point
8NSand - Thanks much for your astute, detailed, and informed comments about New York laws and criminal defense practice there, etc., about which I have only the most rudimentary knowledge. I willingly yield and concede to your clearly superior knowledge, experience, and insights on those matters.
I’m familiar with the Val Maps and their use as evidence, exactly as you say. But in older areas the property/ R-O-W line and road R-O-W shapes at the crossings can be very convoluted. Without a “mark-out” or stakeout of the actual points on the ground at that site by a competent and licensed surveyor, no one really knows where those lines are with regard to the physical features. And the public R-O-W is a “magic” line here - 1" on one side and he’s guilty; 1" on the other side and he’s in the clear. If he was on the shoulder of the road by the concrete “Jersey” barrier as seems probable from the setting - think anyone recorded exactly where he was when the officers first arrived on the scene ? And with regard to any kind of R-O-W marker ?
- Paul North.
Perhaps the reason the kid did not have video of the incident was he was afraid the phone would be confiscated. I have an iphone 4 and can set it on voice recording only. The kid could have done this and had the phone in a shirt pocket out of sight but voice recording everything.
As I said before, this kid’s story may well be for real, maybe not. He may be the victim of police abuse, maybe not. But what amazes me is the rush to total acceptance of this story with very little factual evidence, seemingly b/c he is a railfan. And some folks on this thread who ordinarily are very supportive of the police and the sanctity of rail RofW’s seem to have a different standard in this case. If he was arrested, should he not have some documentation for that from the police department, etc.? And given the recent publicity of the threat to rail security, it seems a bit surprising that someone arrested on the basis of suspicious behavior along a busy passenger rail RofW didn’t make the local news.
+1
There’s multiple sides to every story, and so far, we are hearing only one.
A very valuable and interesting discussion. Thanks for everyone who posted.
8NSand - Your other points are noted and well-taken, but for the next couple of days my spare time is exceedingly limited. For the moment I’ll just note that I too view R-O-W trespassing, teen ‘punks’, and burglars using the R-O-W as serious problems to be dealt with - but those last 2 don’t seem to be involved here. More to the point, the word ‘public’ in “public road” means something, and at a skewed-angle crossing such as this one, I see a good possibility that’s where he actually was. I also see you know the other half of that saying . . . [swg] With respect, I have no desire to practice in NYS - state lines also mean something besides pretty colors on a map ! (Your observations about Pennsylvania jurisprudence are valid, too - “Preliminary Objections” ?!?)
But my prime concern is the apparent misuse and waste of manpower here. Say what you will, sound judgment and discretion appears to have been lacking in several aspects, such as the number of personnel and the seeming lack of interest in getting to the real facts, as opposed to badgering the suspect into a confession - didn’t even appear to be the usual “good cop - bad cop” routine going on here. Let me put it to you this way: If you were the ADA in charge of this case, would you assign and approve of 4 of your professional staff working this little case simultaneously ? (If so, maybe that’s why you’re so busy . . . [:-^] )
Perhaps we can continue this exchange of views at a later time, esp. after we have more facts.
- Paul North.
I can understand why four officers showed up. Keep in mind “railfan” is not a word that is in most people’s vocabulary, police included. The call most likely went out as a suspicious person kneeling on the tracks with an unknown object. Leaving out railfan, that leaves three possibilities: Someone sabotaging the tracks, someone stealing or vandalizing property, or someone committing suicide. Any of which would make an officer greatly appreciate backup. Also, keep in mind that officers don’t always know exactly where other officers are. Some of the officers may have thought they were closer than the other officers and responded. If I heard the call and I was reasonably close I would have responded too.
Paul -
I won’t waste too much time as it appears we both have little just now.
With respect to the question of allocation of resources, that is a question for the police agencies. In this circumstance I would expect a minimum of two local officers to respond. The first would be the beat car for the location and the second a backup unit. In this case we also had a county police car and a railroad (MTA) police car respond. As it is a railroad incident, response by MTA police is mandatory. The county car probably came along as additional backup given that a person with a “device” on the tracks was reported. Frankly, I’m surprised that there weren’t additional cars that responded. I would have expected at least one supervisor as well.
After 9-11 New York tends to treat anything with even a hint of Homeland Securtiy as serious. The nature of the dispatch makes it likely to get a larger response. Probably most of the units cleared pretty fast once they realized it was a teen taking train photos and the device was a camera.
I’d be happy to continue the conversation…
8NSand
[quote user=“Paul_D_North_Jr”]
8NSand - Your other points are noted and well-taken, but for the next couple of days my spare time is exceedingly limited. For the moment I’ll just note that I too view R-O-W trespassing, teen ‘punks’, and burglars using the R-O-W as serious problems to be dealt with - but those last 2 don’t seem to be involved here. More to the point, the word ‘public’ in “public road” means something, and at a skewed-angle crossing such as this one, I see a good possibility that’s where he actually was. I also see you know the other half of that saying . . . With respect, I have no desire to practice in NYS - state lines also mean something besides pretty colors on a map ! (Your observations about Pennsylvan
Since there are people that believe this is fake, I will post a copy of my summons. I have no idea why the news didn’t show up, but the road that crosses the tracks was closed to all traffic, thus preventing them to enter.
As for the info about the laws and ROW that I saw posted, If this is true (which it most likely is) then why didn’t the plenty of police that have confronted me before, let me continue photographing? And this would also mean that the President of MTA Customer service, gave me misleading information saying that it was perfectly ok to be there.
Simply put, the police have discretion to arrest or not or to issue an appearance ticket or not. Or simply give you a warning. This time you were apparently the subject of a civilian complaint so the officers decided to exercise their discretion in favor of being safe and arresting you. You still got a break as you could have ended up i
Seriously dude, you need to get off of railfan forums and only talk with your lawyer.
You have the right to remain silent…’ might not be a bad idea.
Would have been a MUCH better idea a couple of days ago. Posting too much info and photos could cause a significant legal issue and tie your attorney’s hands in plea negotiations or at trial. A trial on a violation such as this will be a bench trial before a judge only. No juries unless you commit a crime. Crimes are misdemeanors and felonies.
8 n’ Sand
This is solid advice in any case such as this one…keep silent and let your lawyer do your talking…that’s what you pay him/her for.
It seems like these officers are really desperate. They might not have seen any action in a while and this is what they needed.
Yeah, somehow I doubt that.
Well here is my .02 cents on the issue. I grew up around the police for 20 years and as much as I support and respect my local officers, many police do have a “high and mighty” ego and have “pet peeves” that they will go overkill on. People have this false image of police that they never do anything wrong and are morally right on all they do. This is a false image and many offers break more laws then the people they are out there to protect.
Many officers tend to PUSH the boundaries of their powers just because they ARE the police and think they can because they put their lives on the line and they are the right hand of the legal system. In the big cities, especially NYC, they are in general over cautious and very right so. They also tend to be more rude and less empathetic towards the populace then police that are not in major cities. A close friend is a officer in Manhattan and he fully agrees with this statement and he stated it is a culture that forced this personality on them.
Now, I know many officers that are truly empathetic toward the populace and will act the way they should.