DCC questions usually fall under these catagories. I will try and answer these questions to the best of my ability. Please note that these topics are based on my experience, that experience may be limited and the topics covered are based on my opinion and should be taken as such.
What is DCC?
Should I go with DCC or should I stay with DC?
How much does a DCC system cost?
Which DCC system?
Which Decoders should I use?
How do I program my decoders?
Which DCC Sound decoders?
What is DCC?
In its simplest for, DCC is nothing more than independant control of a specific locomotive or group of locomotives in a single block of track work. On other words DCC allows you to control ANY locomotive at ANY time in ANY direction at ANY speed in ANY portion of your layout just by punching in its “address”.
To make this happen you need 2 components.
A DCC control station. This unit will send information to the specific DECODER installed in a specific LOCOMOTIVE and tell that locomotive what to ‘do’
A DECODER installed into a locomotive. A decoder does exactly what it says…it DECODES information passing through the rails and then CONTROLS the locomotive to respond properly to said signal.
DCC will also control other aspects of the locomotive (if so equiped). It can control :
Light functions. Front light, rear lights, ditch lights, mars lights, strobe lights…etc
Sound functions. Whistle, Horn, Bell, Dynamic brakes, an Engineer yelling “all-abooooooard”, etc
Other functions not defined as of yet. The beauty of DCC is that it is expandable with the future.
Should I go with DCC or should I stay with DC?
Good question. There is not right or wrong answer. The answer comes from what you want to do with your layout.
REASONS FOR STAYING WITH DC
Layout is small enough to just allow for a few locomotives.
Established layout is set up extensively for DC block control and it would be too expensive to change over to DCC
REASONS FOR MOVING TO DCC
You enjoy independant control of your locomotives.
You have many locomotives on your layout and would like to move only one without flipping block switches.
You enjoy lighting features not available with DC.
You wish to run different locomotives from different manufactures together with no speed-differing problems.
You enjoy the full benifits of sound equipped locomotives.
Good job so far David!
I’m waiting for the post on “Which DCC Sound decoders” I want to see what David has to say about sound decoders, and which ones to use.
-Smoke
How much does a DCC system cost?
One misnomer is that DCC systems cost WAY too much money to be considered for an established layout.
CLUB-LEVEL LAYOUT
Lets see how much it would cost to equip an established layout with 50 locomotives. The DCC system has to be able to handle the 50 locos and the decoders should be of good, reliable quality.
System. Digitrax Super Chief. http://members.shaw.ca/dispatcher/digiprod.htm
Great system, most club level layouts will use Digitrax products. System will run 120 locomotives at one time. This allows all the locos on the layout to run at the same time independantly. Unit features CV read back and upgradable to 8 amps. $450.
Decoders. NCE D13SR. http://www.cchobbies.com/powerpacks/NCEdecoders.htm
Good reliable decoder with silent running and 3 lighting outputs. Good size for HO. $16.00 or less per decoder (if you buy in bulk, your price will drop). Decoder cost is $800 for the 50 locomotives required.
So for $1250 you have a top notch DCC system with good, relaible decoders for 50 locomotives.
This might seem expensive, but reality if you want to run 50 locos at one time. Systems that will be running less locomotives will cost less.
STARTER-LEVEL LAYOUT
Lets say we have 5 locomotives and would like a nice system to run them.
Again, I would have to go with the MCE D13SR decoders. Good decoder, cheap price. 5*16=80 dollars.
For the system I will choose the Digitrax Zephyer. 199 (or less)http://members.shaw.ca/dispatcher/digiprod.htm
I chose this because it is easily expandable with layout expansion and will serve the user well.
So f
Which DCC system?
Ford or Chevy? Import or Domestic?..you get the idea.
There are quality systems available from different manufactures. The Top DCC system companies are (in no particular order)
Digitrax: http://www.digitrax.com
Lenz (Atlas): http://www.lenz.com
MRC: http://www.modelrectifier.com/train-controls/index.asp
The choice of which system you choose is mostly personal choice. There can also be a few other factors to think about…
Which system does my club use?
Will I want to expand?
Will I consider a computer connection to the system?
Aethetics?
All of the above questions are good ones to ask as they will help you deside on your system. Each manufature will have an answer for the above questions.
Good explanation…But, you left out the Zephyr which is a cheaper alternative for DCC.
143.00$ but can only run 10 locomotives.
I cannot take issue with you on but one point**.**
How much does a DCC system cost? $1250 (and the time to convert 50 locomotives).
“One misnomer is that DCC systems cost WAY too much money”
Right there you lost me. To charactize these figures as anything is, I believe, a disservice to others. There is no way any of us can say whether that is way too much or not, because we do not know others’ economic situation, or time availability. We do not know their value system, either. Or, how they like to run their trains. To a whole lot of folks, that is way too much money.
Which Decoders should I use?
Ah, the decoder question. The answer lies in answering the next question…
What do I want the locomotive I install this decoder into to do?
For example, if you want a locomotive to go forward, reverse smoothly and have forward and reverse lights, then you can use any inexpensive mobile decoders like the Digitrax DH123 or NCE D13SR. They are inexpensive and are the ‘bread and butter’ of the DCC decoder industry.
Or…if you want a locomotive with forward, reverse, mars, ditch and cab lights. And you would like a decoder with BEMF (a feature worth its weight in gold)…then you need to look at spending a few more dollars. Digitrax DH163 or NCE D15SR will work nicely.
Which DCC Sound decoders?
Another question to consider is…
Do I want sound? And if so, which decoder is right for me?
This is a complicated question and the answer depends on many things…
1) Which locomotive do you have?
2) What scale are you in?
3) What features do you want your sound loco to have?
4) What are the pros and cons of different sound decoders?
5) Am I able to program after I install the decoder?
6) How much room is available for the installation of the decoder, the capacitor and the speaker?
7) Is railroad-specific sound features important to me?
As you can see, there are alot of quesions to answer and there are a few decoders to choose from with your answers. Lets look at an example.
Lets look at an Atlas GP7 (kato drive). An older unit, but a ‘goody’.
There are a few choices here. One choice would be the Soundtraxx DSD-090LC with EMD first generation sounds (90 dollars). It would fit nicely in place of
Fair enough. I quoted a good system that would handle 50 locomotives. If you can afford 50 locomotives and have the layout to run them on, then $1250 is not expensive IMO for a Top-of-the-line DCC system that will handle all your needs.
Perhaps I should update it with the other extreme?
Whoa up David…I have 70 locos and NO layout! I did not buy these locomotives as a large investment like DCC…Each was a small 2-4 unit order.However…Like I mention on the other thread startup cost can be around $600.00+/- for a basic zephyr set and 20 locos buying at discount.
Lets take that one step farther. A modeler on a tight budget could buy the Zephyr at discount and buy (say) 2 decoders at a time.
Of course while I am not a fan of the Bachmann DCC system that will get a modeler in DCC for less then $100.00 discount(Seen 'em for $70.00).Now add decoders for the locomotives (say) 5 at a time @ 22.00 and thats less then $200.00 start up.
How do I program my decoders?
All the DCC systems will allow you to program the decoders by changing the Control Variables. Changing the CV will change speedtables, lighting effects, horn types, sound levels, transponding on/off, etc.
Changing CVs in any system has a learning curve. Some are steeper than others.
There are other options to really get the most out of your decoders. Connecting your computer to your system (if that options exsists with the system you chose) makes programming your decoders an enjoyable prospect (and lessens that learning curve). Some decoders only have a few dozen CVs (like the early Digitrax decoders) or a few hundred (like the current Soundtraxx Tsunami offereings).
One program I like to use is Decoder-Pro from JMRI. It is a free download, and is updated quite often with new decoder definition files. It is a great tool for looking at decoder functionality, even without having a computer-DCC interface!!! You can download it, set up a ‘Loconet simulation’ (where it will simulate a connection to a DCC system) and open up specific deocders on the simulated ‘program’ track to see what they can do. You can also change an option in the programming window, and see what CVs are changed. You can then change the highlighted CVs on the specific decoder you want to change them on. For example.
Say you have the aformentioned Atlas GP9 on your layout and you installed a Digitrax SFX decoder in it…but you want a mars light instead of a front headlight. So, by opening up Decoder Pro and opening up a comprehensive decoder programming window with the Digitrax SFX and chaning the Light options to what I want (a mars light instead of a regular light) I see that I have to change CVs (in the CV tab) 7=0, 8=0, 49=2. So I go over to my layout
But you have NO layout, hence no need for DCC.
The Bachmann system will have to be replaced after 9 locomotives. It had no expandability (that I know of). I cannot recommend a system that has to be replaced as soon as you get a few more locomotives. The Zephyer is expandable.
This thread is intended as a ‘reality’ check for those who want to change over or start with DCC.
David B
Then you are saying that because I don’t have a layout or need for DCC I can’t throw some sound facts in for DCC?
Odd for a DCC discussion.
We agree on the Bachmann DCC system BUT,it is still USABLE for those that will run 2 or 3 trains on a small-say-around the wall room size layout.
No, I didnt say that. I said that you have no layout, there-fore no need to have a DCC system or decoders in your 70 locos.
You did mention that the Zephyer can handle 20 locomotives [banghead], but what you dont know is that it is limited to 10 (plus 2 DC input jacks to control 2 extra locomotives).
Feel free to be apart of the conversation, but try not to give out mis-informed ‘facts’ as this will confuse the thread. I do NOT want this to become a DC vs DCC thread, that is NOT what this thread is about.
Remember in the other thread Jeffers_mz said
“I figure I’ve saved at least $6000 so far by staying with DC.” (50 locomotives) Well, with the above example, he figured wrong. And I gave an example where the system is top notch. I didnt ‘frugal’ it. Where did he get his information? How did he come up with that figure? Why is he saying such things on these forums? Why does he expect to remain unchecked by fourmites who are actually informed? How many people has he told these ‘facts’ to? How many of these people have been put off of DCC because of his ‘facts’?
Many years ago, I worked in the restaruant industry and was quite sucessful at it. We had a saying that holds true for our hobby.
“If a customer has a good experience in this restaurant, he MIGHT tell 3 people. If he has a bad experience, he WILL tell 15”.
David B
Nor should it become a DCC vs DC…Its a good thread so far.
I got my Zephyr facts from Diggitrax…I must have over lok the ten unit part
BTW…My Atlas 8 GP38s, 8 GP40s and 6 SD35s have duel mode decoders…
From the page you quoted…
Run multiple trains at once without blocking!
Run up to 10 addresses at the same time on your system.
Run up to 10 throttles at the same time on your system.
David B
The way I see it is, both systems have about the same cost.
With DCC there is the upfront cost of getting all the equipment. With DC you don’t need to buy everything at once.
With DC you trade simplicity for complexity. All the extra wiring and switches needed to control the layout are not free. You just don’t notice it as quickly.
But with complexity comes problems. The more complex the wiring becomes, the more errors will creep in to it. Not to mention the time spent in awkward positions doing the wiring. With a more complex system will come more time spent maintaining it, because there are more components to fail, and you have to find them to fix them.
As to DCC vs DC locomotives, the cost there is directly related to how many locomotives you want to have. You can always buy a DC locomot
Instead of wasting time bickering about DCC systems, people should go to:
http://www.tonystrains.com/productcompare/dcccomparison.htm
The web page contains a chart comparing the various, major DCC systems. Sorry Bachman fans but the EZ DCC systems isn’t included on the chart. There chart was prepared by Tony’s Trains Exchange, a DCC dealer that I believe everyone would agree has a fine reputation for both sales, service and knowledge. Afew interesting items to point out -
While a Super Chief can support 120 cabs, does anyone know of a layout that can utilize 120 cabs?
A NCE PowerhousePro (PHP) with the recent chip upgrade now supports 28 funtions.
Interestingly, they note that the Super Chief is not in NMRA conformance.
People should also check out their discussion and comparison of consisting and how each system handles consisting.
One last point. Do not look at the purchase of either a DC or DCC control system as an expense. It is an investment. It is how you control your trains. A poor system, DC or DCC, will lead to frustration with the hobby and no fun. Don’t skimp. Just as one wouldn’t expect a .50 cent flea market car to perform the same as Athearn Genesis 2970 Covered Hopper, don’t expect a $65 DCC system to perform the same as a $150 or $500 DCC system and don’t expect the DC powerpack from a cheap train set to work as good as a top of the line MRC power pack.
For the most in these hobby, you get what you pay for.
jktrains