So at what point do we stop calling Cheyenne a steam shop and start calling it historic equipment maintanice facility? Their hasnt been any steam there for going on two years and counting… Just saying.
Considering what they’re often working on, what exactly is your point?
Spare us, Doc!
These people bailing on the U.P. steam program are not volunteers, but regular U.P. employees, and paid accordingly. Their departure is costing them wages, benefits and seniority.
And your father, if he said what you say he did, was merely borrowing, and mangling his borrowing, to boot. The exact quote, which comes from Charles DeGaulle, is: “The graveyard is full of indispensible men.”
What might be happening at up, and I have no way to be sure, is a lot might just be retiring. Some times things just cycle that way. It can’t see up pushing folks out the door when they are ramping things up to get the big boy done.
Dakotafred,
Sorry to hear that you had friends leaving UP Steam Program. Hard to see them go and not feel the pain of the changes. Corporate “shake up” is often unexpected and bitter. Friend of mine just retired from UP as engineer. Spent most of his life moving freight from Omaha to Cheyenne, can’t tell from the way he talks, but the “camera on the engineer” program was not a pleasant subject for him. John Leslie was quite a steam fan in his youth but as a professional engineer he lost his taste for hobby railroading.
Thought I would share some of Alfred Bruce commets on the UP 4000 series.
Big Boy 4-8-8-4 Type
The 4-8-8-4 type has been built only with four simple cylinders. It probably represents the maximum development of the articulated steam locomotive engine with a reasonable axle loading for manifest-freight train operation, since it incorporated both four-wheel leading and trailing trucks to provide maximum boiler capacity and riding stability at high operating speeds. It had a very even distribution of weight between front and rear engine units and was well balanced in every way. As on all eight-coupled-axle articulated engines, the firebox was relatively shallow and located over the rear drivers and trailer truck. But since it had ample grate area and firebox volume, the boiler steamed well with thin fires and provided ample power.
The basic problem on the 4-8-8-4 type was, of course, to obtain the best firebox and ashpan conditions that the clearances permitted with the 68 in. diameter drivers and a height of 133 inches from the rail to center of boiler. Service performance records indicate that this problem was solved satisfactorily. The firebox crown sheet was about 29 feet in length, but gave no trouble with uncovering on the maximum 2.2 per cent grades because of the presence of an ample water space over the crown of 32 i
Well that begs to question if any work of consequence is being done.
844’s boiler was good till 2019. But here we are in 2015 with 844 gutted years early because the boiler was packed full of mud and the tubes scaled beyond belief. The current management decided to change proven water treatment and blowdown programs for no reason. There use to be a lot of equipment that Cheyenne was tasked with keeping in service. Is 844 in service? Are the E units in service? Was the Rotary ready to go if this winter caused problems? Is 6936 in service? 3985? No to all of the above. Now we have a big boy in the house for over a year. There hasn’t been one single update about any work. Look at the other steam programs around the country. Santa Fe 2926 gives weekly updates of all the work they are getting done with all volunteer labor. N&W 611 had a load of coal delivered this week for the first test fire.
My point is that if any work was being done on anything there would be updates. All that I have seen is work on the building and a bunch of new tools.
As far as the crew no one with any experience will work with the current manager. Under previous management the only turn over in the crew was mostly limited to retirement. Its very telling that all the previous crew members have left. UP has been advertising for a certified boiler maker for months. Until they find one no work can be done on any of the steam locomotive boilers. I love the UP steam program and was very excited about the big boy but I’m not holding my breath on it getting done anytime soon.
Don’t believe what I have said? No problem doesnt bother me a bit. Just remember that since rails have been laid in Cheyenne almost 150 years ago there has always been a s
Dr D., Alfred Bruce had his numbers wrong, UP rostered 105 Challengers, not “close to 200”
From UP’s own website:
It is one of 105 Challengers built for Union Pacific between 1936 and 1943
UP had 25, not 24 Big Boys, #4000-4024. The Challengers numbering changed both by Class, and fuel type, the “Early” Challengers were originally #'ed in the 3900 class, then later re-numbered in the 3800 class, the “Late” Challengers were then #'ed in the 3900 class, with both types renumbered into the 3700 class if/when converted to oil firing.
The 3985 was retired as a dirt burner, and even burned coal after being returned to service, later when the 3985 was converted to oil firing in excursion/PR service, being the ONLY Challenger in service there was no need to renumber her, and she retained the 3900 class #, even though she then was oil fired.
Doug
Challenger3980,
Thanks for the correction to my post on Big Boy. I changed the figures as you were correct in my mis interpretation of Bruce’s data. The 215 total build for Challenger design was undoubtedly for the copies of this is 4-6-6-4 type used on Northern Pacific, Western Pacific, Denver & Rio Grande Western, Western Maryland, Clinchfield RR, and Delaware and Hudson. It appears that only Union Pacific loved the design enough to save two examples. Hard to figure as the locomotive design was truely a great one. I would think Union Pacific would have a better passenger engine in the UP 3985 Challenger, the UP 4014 Big Boy was a freight locomotive for sure. However, the “Biggest is the Best” and “Most Famous” titles are sure to push the Big Boy into passenger service - something I am not sure it was ever built to do. We will have to see just how much speed they can get out of her commonly held 60 mph speed limit. Challenger was suposed to be good for 70 mph “back in the day” wonder if they ever topped it?
Doc
[quote user=“DEREK HOWELL”]
Well that begs to question if any work of consequence is being done.
844’s boiler was good till 2019. But here we are in 2015 with 844 gutted years early because the boiler was packed full of mud and the tubes scaled beyond belief. The current management decided to change proven water treatment and blowdown programs for no reason. There use to be a lot of equipment that Cheyenne was tasked with keeping in service. Is 844 in service? Are the E units in service? Was the Rotary ready to go if this winter caused problems? Is 6936 in service? 3985? No to all of the above. Now we have a big boy in the house for over a year. There hasn’t been one single update about any work. Look at the other steam programs around the country. Santa Fe 2926 gives weekly updates of all the work they are getting done with all volunteer labor. N&W 611 had a load of coal delivered this week for the first test fire.
My point is that if any work was being done on anything there would be updates. All that I have seen is work on the building and a bunch of new tools.
As far as the crew no one with any experience will work with the current manager. Under previous management the only turn over in the crew was mostly limited to retirement. Its very telling that all the previous crew members have left. UP has been advertising for a certified boiler maker for months. Until they find one no work can be done on any of the steam locomotive boilers. I love the UP steam program and was very excited about the big boy but I’m not holding my breath on it getting done anytime soon.
Don’t believe what I have said? No problem doesnt bother me a bit. Just remember that since rails have been laid in Cheyenne almost 150 year
Dakotafred wrote:
Who cares about how many Challengers were built or the vital stats on the Big Boy?
Well, OBVIOUSLY NOT YOU, but there are others here who have intrests that differ from your own. Did you have a rough day on the playground? Probably even took your ball and went home, when the game wasn’t going your way too!
It is a Shame that UP is willing to spend the money on the Steam Program, but doesn’t seem to be getting much of a return on their investment.
But, what you and Derek seem to forget, is that the Steam Program is a DISCRETIONARY PR Program, not something that is mandatory. Some here give the impression that UP OWES them a Steam Program, NEWSFLASH, They DON’T.
Doug
Spot on Doug… But let’s hope they can pull off the big boy project.
I Really Appreciate the UP Steam Program, and I Hope to see it continue as Great of a Success, or Greater than it was under Steve Lee.
Sometimes that seems to be Wishful Thinking, but the program is still being funded, so there is still Hope.
i too would Love to see the 4014 under Steam again, imagine the 4014, 3985 and the 844 all with Fires in their Bellies at the same time.
Hey, I can Hope/Dream can’t I?
Heck, I even play the Lottery, so to ME, Anything is Possible
One thing we can all be appreciative of is that the men and women in Omaha know how to run a railroad right. They had an operating ratio in 2014 in the low 60s, nipping at the heals of CN in that category, and made over $5 billion, clearing 21% of their revenue to the bottom line.
Why is that important to the heritage operations? Because UP is as aware of their heritage as Wells Fargo or Budweiser, and like those companies, they take it seriously and do it right. If they are having any issues with the heritage operations, history says Omaha will figure it out and get it right. One great example is their response to the grid lock on the Sunset Route in the not too distant past. That response is ongoing and it is incredible when you think about it - building another transcontinental track alongside the first transcontinental track while running operations full bore.
Omaha is apparently investing what is easily seven figures in restoring the steam shop to its prior capability. They have a Big Boy, Challenger and FEF-3 in the roundhouse. They did a pretty decent job moving the Big Boy out of Pomona and back to Cheyenne without a hitch. Thay are investing multiple seven figures in getting the Big Boy operational. They are going to get 844 back on the road again in late 2015 or 2016 and you can bet that if something bad happened to 844 on the New Mexico great circle tour (which itself was quite successful), they will never do that again because they will have learned the hard way, but they won’t repeat it.
UP also has, worst case, decades and decades worth of swappable spare parts with 7 other Big Boys around the country, the Challenger in North Platte, and FEF-3 838 and FEF-2 833 in Utah.
Budweiser won’t be putting the Clydesdales out to permanent pasture anytime soon, and UP’s heritage program will likely outlast several more generations of caretakers and their learning curves.
In the meantime, I am going to pop open a Budweiser and toast the UP for the sho
kgbw49,
Well with an invitiation like that I won’t hold back from - The Third Chapter! There is more in the historical mission of Union Pacific to fulfill its heritage of steam railroading! One more part to the great Union Pacific Steam ReEnactment Pageant.
The steam locomotive named for the railroad itself - never used by any other railroad - part of Nebraska and Wyoming rural heritage - seen for decades chasing the sunset or siilouteted across the American Great Planes - I’m talking classic big steam! UP 9000 the prototype of 4-12-2 named for the railroad - The UNION PACIFIC Type!
Alfred Bruce describes the 4-12-2.
Union Pacific 4-12-2 Type
The 4-12-2 type was developed in 1926 as a three-cylinder engine to provide a maximum tractive effort of about 96,600 lbs in a rigid engine with a low axle loading, not to exceed 60,000 lbs.
The three cylinders delivered the power directly to two different driving axles, the outer cylinders to the third axle and the center cylinder to the second axle, permitting good balance in the 67" driving wheels, and gave a very good and even torque line. Although the outside pistons and main rods connected to the number three drivers were very long, they were also readily accessible and gave no trouble.
These Union Pacific Type engines were recognized by the builder, the American Locomotive Company, as slow-speed engines, and when put into service on the Union Pacific Railroad the speed restriction of 35 miles per hour went with them; and so long as this was observed very little trouble was experienced. However, because of the long wheel base the locomotives were very stable riding, and speeds of 60 miles per hour or more were very frequently reported. The original operation of these locomotives was over an undulating trackage profile with about 1 1/2 per cent grades and 4-degree curature of track; later operations were on trackage over 2 per cent
For those interested in putting some numbers to turnover in the Cheyenne steam shop, see today’s Wyoming Tribune Eagle at wyomingnews.com.
dakota, what did the eagle say?
Are your fingers broken? Read it for yourself.
Looked at the Eagle - no sight of the story you mention. Working link would help the millions that don’t reside in Wyoming
UNION PACIFIC’s BIG THREE
Locomotive: UP 9000 - 4-12-2 UP 3902 - 4-6-6-4 UP 4002 - 4-8-8-4
Year Built: UP 9000 - 1926 UP 3902 - 1936 UP 4002 - 1941
Boiler Pressure:
UP 9000 - 220 psi UP 3902 - 255 psi UP 4002 - 300 psi
Cylinder size: bore and stroke:
UP 9000 - (3 cylinders) 27"x 32" outers with 27"x 31" inner
UP 3902 - (4 cylinders) 22"x 32"
UP 4002 - (4 cylinders) 23 3/4" x 32"
Driver Diameter:
UP 9000 - 67 inches UP 3902 - 69 inches UP 4002 - 68 inches
Tractive Effort:
UP 9000 - 96,000 lbs UP 3902 - 97,4
I apologize to Robert Willison and all. It’s an old, rather than new, story that somehow popped up on the paper’s “most read” list.
The short way to find it (and its old news) is to Google “kelsey bray edgar dickens”; the referenced story, from Dec. 2013, should be at the top of the list.