Any possibilities of a C,B&Q 4-8-4 Returning to steam.

Mudchicken - sorry to have missed you at the Colorado Rail Museum - the library you volunteer at is quite facility - it must be great to have time to delve into its many treasures - wish I was there to do the adventure with ya.

Visiting Golden, Colorado this last week I had a chance to look over CB&Q 5629. I had seen CB&Q 5632 in Chicago when Dick Jensen had purchased it from the Burlington RR. 5632 of course was in almost operational condition the overhaul having been stopped and the engine sold.

These were massive western 4-8-4 northerns on the order of size of Santa Fe. Big and powerful. The CB&Q gave 5629 to the Colorado Museum in 1963 after it stopped running it in 1957 it had been used as a stationary boiler in Nebraska.

Visually, the engine is complete and shows little damage except for the fireman side windows being broken - come on why let animals and elements into a locomotive in a museum setting when some glass and a little work could repair this? Another observation about 5629 is that the boiler jacket has rusted out on each course under the belly of the boiler allowing the asbestos jacketing to be washed out or pulled out by animals. This has got to be an enviornmental no no - and for an engine on museum display!

The engine seems entirely intact with closed all weather cab - oil fire conversion from coal - and is built with alligator crossheads - brass bushed main rods - Baker valve gear - Boxpolk drivers 73 inches dia - solid cast steel frame with cylinders and appliance mounts and brake mounts cast integral to the frame - wow! - massive blunt one piece pilot with coupler that elevates upwards out of the way - Nathan lubricator - Worthington feed water and a cross compound air compressor on each side.

The big steamer CB&Q 5629 has a silver boiler front - with Pyle headlight and that marvelous western railroad novelty of the 1940’s and 50’s - the MARS LIGHT - a twin beam headlig

At present, the dream for No. 5629 should be to just get it under cover. Steam locomotives without shelter are dying a slow death from corrosion. While wet asbestos is eating away at the boiler and cylinder jackets, they are replaceable. That wet asbestos is also eating away at the boiler shell, to the point that some engines are no longer practical to return to operation. It’s really a crime that picture-snapping railfans and model railroaders have done so little to save our remaining steam locomotives. Cosmetic restoration, using mostly volunteer labor, is not terribly expensive and well within the fundraising capabilities of most volunteer groups. The work requires some basic knowledge of how to not damage the engine (don’t roll it without journal preparation, etc.) but is otherwise just hard and dirty. It does not require more than basic shop skills. But on most display locomotives, what little work has been done was by the Jaycees, Boy Scouts, etc… The train nuts have been conspicuosly absent, including on the 4-6-0 I’m restoring. Of the 15 or so persons who have helped me, none were railfans.

I rode behind 5632 had a great cab ride with her and chased her any times and ended up with some great photo’s of her. It is a rotten shame what happened to this great engine. I would love to see a 5600 engine running again. or even a Q hudson. I think there are a lot of Q fans out there that would love that process Chuck

I ddn,t know you were restoring a 4-6-0!!! You got me interested now. What’s here history?

It seems by the responses here that there is some interest in seeing a C,B & Q 4-8-4 rebuilt and running again. This would be a huge and complex project. I myself wouldn’t even know where to begin a project like this.Would it be worth contacting a society that has already rebuilt an engine like this to see if they would have the inclination for a rebuild project?

John Becker

John,

The question you ask is to the fates! The fate of each remaining locomotive!

The reason we all discuss locomotive restoration on the trains magazine forum is to generate common interest in steam locomotives. The business of restoring a steam locomotive is not for the faint of heart. Many locomotive restorations have been attempted and have failed and the results for the locomotive can be worse that if it were never attempted.

For example the State of Pennsylvania contracted Railroaders Memorial Museum to have one of the two remaining Pennsy K4 Pacific 4-6-2 locomotives restored. After spending millions of dollars the state pulled the plug on the project and Pennsy K4 1361 remains scattered in a thousands pieces in the corner of Steamtown roundhouse. Can’t say I have seen much discussion of this lately and it is a shame because K4 1361 is one of the greatest passenger engines of American railroad history. Isn’t anyone clamoring to see it saved?

A worse fate awaited the steam locomotive star of the Burlington Railroad CB&Q 5632. The Burlington Railroad itself had almost finished the effort to restore the big northern when a change in railroad managment pulled the financial plug on the project. As fate would have it, CB&Q 5632 went out of the Burlington’s hands into the ownership of a Chicago railfan named Richard Jensen. Richard already owned and was operating a Grand Trunk Western 5629 a 4-6-2 which was being used in passenger excursion service in Chicago and Detroit.

Richard was relying on some cooperation of other railroads like Baltimore And Ohio and Chicago and Western Indiana for the use of their facilities such as the Chicago 47th street roundhouse for locomotive storage. This was a tricky game Richard was playing with company officials and executives of corporations because the sentiments of managment and the power plays within corporate structures turned

To answer your question john. Yes. It is worth it. I have stated this before. I may be 22. But the 5632 was my favorite nothern of all time. Sure I have allot of 4-8-4’s as favorites. But she is no.1. I think the reason I want a c,b & Q 4-8-4 return. Is cause not only are they beautiful. But we lost not just one but two beautiful engines too soon. And with events that could have been prevented. I personally wanna see a wrong rewritten. 5629 is 5632’s twin. And I just wanted to see if there is a possibility for her or one of the four surviving sisters to return. As docter mentioned. There is potential. I just didn’t know that she was in bad shape. Plus why wouldn’t you want to see one of those thouro breeds run again?. As for 1361. I personally asked them via Facebook. To my shock they replied. The museum has 1361 back. And now that they have a roundhouse up. They are going to return her to steam. I believe to full operating boiler pressure. Now I did,n,t ask what happened to all the money in Steamtown. But to me if you had several million given to ensure for it to get done and had it there for several years. What the hell happened? And why did it look like nothing was done? I mean what did they do. What was the repairs that drained the money so quickly? Plus if you had only a couple of repairs you should have a quit a bit left. Hell even enough for the 15 years and then some. I still wonder what epic disaster happens to cause so little work done.?

And although they will deny it every $ that goes to the silly T1 project is money that doesen’t go to getting a Q 4-8-4 or better yet a 4-6-4 operational. That’s why I think the T1 project is bad for the steam restoration effort.

How about you get an 0-5 or S-4 project set up, organized, financed and supported, at least to the level of participation that the T1 Trust has achieved?

Then, perhaps, you will have some standing to comment on practical use of available steam restoration dollars for that purpose.

Pennsy T1 was no joke!

Because it was probably the flowering of the American steam locomotive design; and the Pennsylvania RR burst upon an age of genius in the development of this concept of steam power for the modern age.

After years of running hundreds of dowdy old hand fired “pacifics” and “mikes” the Pennsylvania Railroad came of age with four truely remarkable steam engine designs.

To back up this unique locomotive production the railroad included a massive corporate budget, extensive shop complex at Juniata, Pennsylvania - a facility which included locomotive dyanomometer in which the largest most powerful steam engines could be run at full power indoors in a stationary setting to test for efficiency and horsepower. The Pennsylvania RR in this fashion was able to fine tune their steam engine design. NO OTHER railroad in history ever had this kind of technology at its fingertips.

The results of these efforts in the 1930’s was the design of the 6-4-4-6, the 4-4-4-4 passenger engines, the 6-8-6 direct drive steam turbine, and the 4-4-6-4 freight locomotive. All these were remarkable and the result of iconoclastic engineering thought.

The question remains, Why on earth would a company that went to this degree of effort have scrapped everyone of these marvelous engine designs and saved instead a number of ordinary steam locomotives that every other railroad was using?

Don’t get me wrong I am glad to have the Pennsylvania steam collection of 4-6-2’s and the 4-8-2’s - but they lack all the GLORY that Pennsylvaina Railroad came to. What are they compared to the mighty 4-4-6-4. A rigid chasis freight engine that produced more than 8000 horsepower! More than any other steam locomotive ever built! More than UP 4014, more NW 1218, more than C&O 2-6-6-6 - more than any steam locomotive!

So why should we build a reproduction T1 today? For the glory or for

Dr. D, you are The Bard of Steam and this is your Globe Theater! Your posts are always so enjoyable - thank you so much for contributing them! And t’would indeed be a midsummer night’s dream to see a T1 hurtling by in all it’s vaporous splendor, whether it be at the ides of March or any other moment in our celestial navigation about Apollo’s orb!

you can contribute to the 3007 fund at the IRM store. It’s already up and taking contributions, including mine Thank You!

You’d better provide an explicit URL – the IRM store on the Web is clueless about the existence of a “3007 fund”. I hope that’s not the best you can do substantiating an actual plan to restore and then operate a Burlington Hudson. There’s been plenty of foam, including this video from 2010 which also purported the idea that IRM was going to restore 3007 to operation:

Alas, the link to the ‘organized restoration’, whatever it might have been then, is no longer available, and I really didn’t have the heart to go to the Wayback Machine to see what it consisted of. (At least the organ music is good, even if the video poster didn’t think so!)

I don’t have nearly the interest in something like 1630 (which IRM actually does say they plan to ‘restore to operation’) – and until further notice I’ll be spending my available dollars on something modern and interesting and in an advanced stage of being professionally done, like 3713 or 2926, or that has actual, demonstrated organizational support, like MEC 470. But those efforts have little if any particular ‘crossover’ of interest or support with the T1 group, at least at their current levels of operation; and in any case the T1 group transcended the ‘send in your $25 for the blue-sky fund’ level of activity a very long time ago (even if some of their ‘official’ publicity approaches still seem a bit wacky at times).

I repeat: when you can demonstrate the same level of activity for the 3007 project that the T1 organization is currently engaged in, come back and we can start to discuss what you think might be ‘silly’.

Ok I have never seen her - BIG ALICE THE GOON!

Thats right - Ron Ziel had her picture in Twilight of Steam way back in 1966 - there in the rail yard was the last thoroughbred Burlington “hudson.”

Once glistening in stainless steel streamlining - fluted to look like a “Zephyr” - replete with roller bearing side rods - there she was - BIG ALICE THE GOON! I studied the black and white picture hoping to see her myself in the Gailsburg Yard yet, but she was gone.

Burlington Railroad was caught up in the light weight stainless steel passenger craze - Zephyr’s they called them - California Zephyrs - fast diesel powered and light weight. Wonderful and new designs foreign to the operating department which was still set on steam locomotion - they caught the fancy of the press. Diesel Powered stainless steel Zephyr’s in stainless steel. The last one could be seen for years at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. Diesel Zephyrs!

BIG ALICE THE GOON - they called her - Burlington Railroad named her AEOLUS - GREEK GOD OF THE WIND - shop workers called her BIG ALICE! She was built for the Burlington as standard “hudson” passenger power - big western power in 1930. When the streamlining diesel craze hit CB&Q 3002 was chosen out of the 12 “hudson” locomotives for special treatment in stainless steel. CB&Q 4000 aka CB&Q 3002.

She was a Burlington 4-6-4 hudson - taller than those of the New York Central but just as much to be desired for fast passenger work - reported to run on one load of coal from Chicago to Denver and capable of 112 mph - good speed for a “hudson.” Burlington streamlined two of them for replacement California Zephyr power and surprisingly built a third engine brand new in the company shops. The first was CB&Q 4000 aka CB&Q 3002 - the second was new built CB&Q 4001 - an

4000 is definitely a better candidate for operating restoration, imho – and was given the Scott Lindsay treatment a decade ago.

It took some digging, but here is the website of the group that takes care of her – note that the principals have their telephone and e-mail numbers proudly listed. A hint to the wise is sufficient if you want to set up to finance restoration to operations…

http://www.4000foundation.org/about-us.html

For those interested in the streamlining, there is this PDF link.

I do have to say that the Aeolus treatment is FAR more like the Crusader than ‘sweater girl’ 490 is! And personally I still think it is hard to reconcile that cab arrangement with anything streamlined or sleek; even with the shrouding applied: it gives something of the same ‘cobbled together’ vibe that the Milwaukee F6 has – in both cases belying the very fine high-speed performance provided by the locomotives. Where were Loewy and Kuhler when they were needed? [;)]

[quote user=“Wizlish”]

Buslist
you can contribute to the 3007 fund at the IRM store. It’s already up and taking contributions, including mine Thank You!

You’d better provide an explicit URL – the IRM store on the Web is clueless about the existence of a “3007 fund”. I hope that’s not the best you can do substantiating an actual plan to restore and then operate a Burlington Hudson. There’s been plenty of foam, including this video from 2010 which also purported the idea that IRM was going to restore 3007 to operation:

Alas, the link to the ‘organized restoration’, whatever it might have been then, is no longer available, and I really didn’t have the heart to go to the Wayback Machine to see what it consisted of. (At least the organ music is good, even if the video poster didn’t think so!)

I don’t have nearly the interest in something like 1630 (which IRM actually does say they plan to ‘restore to operation’) – and until further notice I’ll be spending my available dollars on something modern and interesting and in an advanced stage of being professionally done, like 3713 or 2926, or that has actual, demonstrated organizational support, like MEC 470. But those efforts have little if any particular ‘crossover’ of interest or support with the T1 group, at least at their current levels of operation; and in any case the T1 group transcended the ‘send in your $25 for the blue-sky fund’ level of activity a very long time ago (even if some of their ‘official’ publicity approaches still seem a bit wacky at times).

I repeat: when you can

# “T1 Trust begins Kickstarter campaign”

Headline from TRAINS Newswire of July 9th,2015

July 9, 2015
Buslist: Not sure if you were being ironic or had not heard of this ‘new’ effort to prproduce a PRR T-1. Seems like an effort is being made to ‘fund’ this effort, it has been 'batted around ’ for some time, but looks like it maybe is beginning to gel into a real effort to make it happen(?) Just do not know enough of the ‘details’.
So here is a snip from the Newswire article:"…HARRISBURG, Pa. – The nonprofit T1 Trust has begun a Kickstarter campaign to raise money to cast wheels for a new version of the long scrapped Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Class duplex drive 4-4-4-4. The Trust hopes to eventually raise the $10 to $20 million it will take to build a new version of the locomotive, which will be numbered 5550.

The immediate objective for the Trust is to cast two drivers for the T1. These wheels stood nearly 7 feet tall and were capable of conveying the T1 at speeds in excess of 140 mph. Working from original Pennsylvania Railroad mechanical drawings, the project’s engineers created computer models of the wheels. These models were delivered along with requests for quotes to more than 60 foundries across the country. Over a four-month period, the search was narrowed and the team ultimately selected Beaver Valley Alloy Foundry in Monaca, Pa., that utilizes the latest technologies for pattern making, metallurgy, and casting steel…" [snipped]
Further FTA:[snip]"…The Kickstarter campaign is designed to help the Trust raise $20,000 needed to

Restoring an existing (and proven) steamer should be a lot cheaper and easier than building and running a brand new T-1 with all its bugs.

Then you should have no trouble providing that URL to the organized 3007 campaign you claimed was going on, and that you had donated to, should you? Anything else, while perhaps laudable, is not germane to the discussion here.

Since you are so well connected at IRM, can you tell us how much has been earmarked specifically for this restoration so far?

Docter… You forgot the nickel plate road 4-6-4 in the transportation museum of saint Louis.