I mentioned this in another post, but would like to throw it out to see if I can pick everyone’s brain: Does anyone have a good system for simulating industrial steam escaping from stacks, steam vents, and that sort of thing? I have used electric smoke generators, but they require frequent “restoking” with oil, and the lazy drifting of smoke from the top of a stack doesn’t really represent the industrial muscle I’d like to see. I’ve been toying with plans for a reservoir that will hold warm water into which I can drop a piece of dry ice. A force draft fan will then blow air across the dry ice and then into a manifold from which flexible ducts can take it to hollow smokestacks and other building vents so it can boil out with some enthusiasm. I’m probably dating myself, but I recall going to dances years ago where a large system that worked this way was used to blow “fog” across the dance floor. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks!
Question: Have you ever handled dry ice? Your idea sounds workable, but you need to be aware that dry ice must be handled very carefully, wearing heavy gloves. If it ever touches bare skin it causes instant frostbite, and it will require a special storage container to prevent evaporation.
I think dry ice is still used in theatrical productions to generate fog. One of the local supermarkets has a freezer full of dry ice, but I have never seen anyone purchasing it.
[#ditto]
Yes dry ice is more trouble than its worth, IMO. What about a fog machine expelling into a “chamber” with micro fans driving the fog out the steam vents…?maybe the fans would even be redundant as the unit puts out 1500 cubic feet per minuite! [:)]
If that’s too much fog, then how does one control the fog?
Alternately why not make steam? Here’s a cheap example of a steam engine.
Ok maybe not. [;)]
Hi, CACOLE:
Thanks for the comments! Yes, I know dry ice is pretty darned cold - it will disappear even if it is kept in a normal home freezer, which is much too WARM to store it! So I know if I went that route, I would have to buy a piece before any operating session featuring a steaming factory or mill. (Maybe that would be a good indication of when my operating session was over . . .) Or maybe I would have to keep a sign handy for the entrance to my mill: “CAUTION - MAINTENANCE SHUTDOWN IN PROGRESS” so the mill would still look realistic even when the dry ice had run out and the steam stopped!
I appreciate the warning on dry ice - it would have to be handled with heavy gloves or tongs, or I might find myself suffering a serious industrial injury for hanging around an HO scale pulp mill!
BlueHillsCPR:
Holy smokes (so to speak!) What a great idea! If the fog machine creates clouds that are non-irritating and don’t leave a film of atomized “juice” on things, this would appear to be the perfect solution (testing notwithstanding). But for a $24 investment, it would be great to have simulated steam and smoke that could be turned on and of with the flip of a switch (as opposed to using dry ice, which will do whatever it’s going to do in its own time). I’d like to get something like this and run some trials with the fans you refer to - it’s possible one forced draft fan could feed them all, or, as you note, a micro fan (such as those for cooling computer hard drives) could be placed into the base of each stack or vent to force the fog out. It will be fun to find out!
This may meet your needs Fake fog or give you a idea.
Glad you liked the concept…I started with my wifes steam iron, believe it or not[(-D]
have fun trying it out and be sure to report your success or lack thereof here! [tup][:)]
JOHNNY_REB
Hey that’s a good one too…I wonder if a guy could rip the bones out of that and attach it as the chamber? [:-,]
Johnny Reb: That’s another good possibility - I’ve also been looking at “cold humidifiers” that seem to make a fog from tap water (they would certainly be easy to refuel), but I’m not sure if the fog will stay dense while it’s being piped to different smokestacks. I can see I have some experimentation to do - but I’ll keep everyone posted on any progress I make. (The same effect would look good coming from roundhouse stacks, too, I bet!)
After viewing the video on the “Coffin Fogger” site, it certainly appears that the think makes fog dense enough to be fan-driven to smoke stacks and buildings.
I seriously doubt that a water vaporizer type of humidifier would be a good idea for this purpose. The mist would tend to condense in the tubing and dribble back into the vaporizer, and the mist from them does not look at all like steam. Their theory is that the water droplets are so small they quickly evaporate in the open air, and would probably not travel through a tube of any substantial length.
Although it might be more trouble, maintenance wise, you could try some type of electric heater boiling a small pan of water.
I have no personal experience with them, but there are some fan driven smoke generators used on O and G scale locomotives that put out a fairly thick cloud of smoke or steam, and the oils are available in difference colors and smells. One or two of these would be easier and safer to maintain than some of the other ideas that have been bantered about.
You might consider looking around on the Garden Railways Magazine forum and the Classic Trains forum, to see what you can find out there about those devices.
Most of all the methods to creat this smoke/ stean or mist will eventually create a nightmare for any surrounding trackwork, rolling stock and scenery. Dry ice fog will drop from the stack and after all your efforts, I don’t really think it is viable or authentic. The smoke machines that I’ve used can still leave a residue in a closed environment.
Fog is heavier than air and sinks. Smoke is lighter than air and rises. Which are you trying to simulate?
Coming from a background in professional lighting and sound. My recomendation would be a small fog machine mounted under your layout. Somethign around the 1000 cubic foot per mintue range with a controler that allows you to control the amount of fog it produces. Have it piped into a holding chaber that you could pack full of smoke and then plumb that to your individual areas you want it to and have your fans mounted at the start of your pipe in your holding chamber. then you can turn on the ones you want I would also recomend a valve on each line so that if you didn’t want steam coming out of certain areas you could close the pipe off. I know it sounds way more complicated then it needs to be. But could be a very worth while effort as a fog machine holds anywhere from a liter and up your refilling could be kept to a minimum and the amount it produces is very sigificant if you contane it in a confined area that is sealed.
Just a thought you could make a real smoker by putting a cigar in a mouth piece made into a sealed chamber with a fan pulling in air, and small tubing going to each stack. It would be real smoke if you don’t mind the smell.
This is just a thought mind you as most people are non-smokers now and would be very offended by this.
This smoke chamber would be metal with the cigar inside and the fan would draw the air into the chamber forcing the cigar to smoke. With the chamber sealed the smoke would be forced up and out of the tubing on the mouth end of the cigar running to each “smoke” stack. The “smoker” would be make with two chambers, one to hold the burning cigar and the other to act as the manifold for the tubing. Fish tank air tubing would be used with a valve on each to control the stacks.
Even the smell of the cigar would make for more realism.
Thanks, Trax 21! A background in professional lighting and sound must be invaluable in creating realistic scale railroad scenes - our trains are actors, and all the layout’s a stage, so to speak!
I DO NOT think your approach sounds too complicated - it’s a matter of development and tailoring the technology to the effects I’m seeking - I could easily picture some constant backgroud stacks spewing white vapor for overall atmosphere, while I have hand-controlled fans to occasionally vent large clouds of steam from individual buildings or systems (probably accompanied by an electronically generated echoing “hiss” to add to the effect). Depending on the process used, pulp and paper mills function with huge amounts of steam for heating, drying, running power generators, and operating pollution recovery systems. (I’m interesting in using white “steam” for all the stacks and vents because, with modern pollution control requirements, white vapor is about the only thing you’re likely to see coming from a stack unless something is working incorrectly in the mill. Compare this to the black, brown or gray dense plumes seen from stacks in factories of decades past!)
Interesting technology, Reb - though not likely to be popular with my wife, who is allergic to tobacco smoke! You’re right about the realism added by stench, however - the mill I worked at frequently stunk of chlorine, sulfur dioxide, rotting wood, and several other less-than-pleasant aromas. Cigar smoke certainly wouldn’t have been any worse!
Hi, Vet! In a modern pulp or paper mill, pollution control is a huge part of the technology - major portions of a mill, including what is typically the tallest structure in the plant, known as a “recovery boiler,” are specifically dedicated to eliminating toxic emissions. To answer your question, I would be trying to simulate steam, which rises due to its temperature relative to surrounding air. Simulation of this will probably involve fog (which has good simulation color and other characteristics, and doesn’t leave the smoky residue some posts here refer to.) I agree that a thick generated fog will tend to sink around the model, and think this could be compensated for in two ways:
-
Forced-draft fans pushing the fog rapidly from stacks and building vents will hopefully cause it to dissipate before it can visibly settle to the layout base, and
-
a low-flow external fan mounted just off one edge of the layout can generate a soundless prevailing “wind” which will carry the fog away from its point of origin and dissipate it to invisibility before it can make the mill look like a graveyard on Halloween.
ALL of this, however, is subject to testing, and I have no doubt that substantial tinkering and experimentation will probably be required to achieve the desired effects.
Cacole: I’ll have to nose around the Internet and see about fan-driven smoke generators on larger-scale locomotives - intersting that a variety of colors and aromas are available! The preferred color would be white; you could hardly lose no matter what aroma you picked for a pulp mill - the one I worked in stunk of so many different things that anything would be nearly prototypical (not that I’d want ALL those smells in my layout room!) You’re probably very right about medical humidifiers generating a thin vapor that would easily condense back to water.
Glad you like my idea… My only issue right now is I’m learning all the basics of modeling myself I have some good ideas but never know if they will work. I’m used to a much bigger setting where things aren’t quite so fragile. As for the smoke you can purches differnt deneities, as well you may have to experiment with them a little to find the one that best suits your needs. Also I saw some good suggestions for piping. So depending on the amount of “steam you want” you could also very the size pipe leading to the stack.
Theatrical smoke generators can use a variety of things to make the smoke. Some use dry ice, some use oils or grease. Local Guitar Center a few years back was doing one of their 3 day promo sales and used a smoke machine to generate ‘atmosphere’. It was an interesting smell, as they used something that made the whole place smell like turkey roasting on Thanksgiving. And another problem cropped up - globules from the smoke/fog got into the pots on some of the amps and settled on amp face plates and a whole bunch of guitars. They spent a week cleaning the mess up. Never did it again.