I searched the MR data base and got like 2500 hits on matte medium. After reading about a hundred, I felt my questions may best be asked on this group directly as there seemed to be evenly divided comments on the two glues and weren’t helping me to easily decide which to use.
At my age, this is likely my last layout and I was thinking of using matte medium primarily as it is supposed to be quieter than white glue. Sound deadening is more of a concern as I have many sound equipped locos.
White glue has the attributes of cheapness and ability to recycle track. Its negatives appear to be it is quite noisy, quite brittle, yellows with age and dries shiny to some degree.
Matte medium appears to be quieter, more flexible, doesn’t change color and is flatter in appearance. It’s negative is cost and inability to recycle track.
Cost of the glue is not a concern of mine as I have a gallon of white glue and about a 1/2 gallon of matte medium. My layout is fairly large and I can always use one or the other for the scenery, so neither would be wasted.
Question: Has anyone actually done a comparison study in the 2 me
I haven’t experienced or observed any of those negatives with white glue.
The other problem with matte medium is the talc used to render it flat. You have to exercise special care when using matte medium to avoid the whitish residue the talc can create.
If that’s the case, I’d try both and see which you like.
I haven’t engaged in scientific study, but have used both products. The things about matte medium that prevent me from using it are its relative impermeability to water once it dries (which inhibits recycling track to some degree) and the extra steps for avoiding the white residue. Given the additional cost, I don’t find the supposed strengths of matte medium outweigh those of white glue. If there was a reduction in noise from using matte medium, I never noticed it, nor did any of my visitors. Since I had no issues with white glue being brittle or shiny, I just stuck with it.
I just posted a new message on the forum about the use of foam as a layout surface although as I acknowledged, it has probably been raised 1,000 times before. LOL So, I share your feeling about posting an oft asked question. But, you are right, when a question is posted so often, it is difficult and time consuming to research it, so better to ask it all over again.
Regarding your issue, when I first got into the hobby 8 years ago, the guys at my LHS encouraged me to use matte medium to secure ballast on the grounds that it was quieter than white glue. I tried both matte medium and white glue and, indeed, matte medium is quieter than white glue but both add noise to trains running over ballasted track. Ballast alone with glue of any type is a lot quieter but, of course, none of us are willing to put up with the potential mess of unballasted track if something disturbs the ballast such as a derailment or stubby fingers messing up the perfectly groomed ballast.
It is difficult, although not impossible, to remove matte medium from ballasted track. Since white glue is water based, it more easily dissolves or separates when further diluted in a tub of water. Matte medium has an acrylic polymer base, so it does not dissolve or separate as easily as white glue. However, the higher the rate of dilution of matte medium with water before application, the easier it is to remove by subsequent soaking. When I first used matte medium, I used a 1:1 dilution with water. It was a bear to later remove from turnouts. So, then I used a 2:1 water/matte medium ratio. That was a lot easier to remove. Now, I use a 4:1 water/matte mdium ratio, and removal is one heck of a lot easier. Incidentally, a 4:1 ratio works fine and holds well. In fact, the higher the ratio of water to matte medium, the less chance of any white residue appearing on such thi
This is good advice. In my opinion, there’s been entirely too much hand-wringing over this topic. I’ve used both matte medium and white glue and have noticed absolutely no difference between the two other than cost. The “drawbacks” associated with white glue are due entirely to improper application, usually insufficient pre-wetting.
As you’ve discovered by searching for answers, this is one of those “tuh-may-toh” / “tuh-mah-toh” issues. It’s mostly a matter of personal preference.
I’ve never been bothered by the noise of my trains running, so I can’t really say about the sound deadening qualities of matte medium, but I much prefer it’s other qualities.
I won’t rehash what others have said, but just give you a tip for getting rid of the talc. After you make your solution, let it sit overnight, then pour off the solution and throw the gummy talc away. Takes a little longer than mixing glue, but it’s no real trouble.
First, a thank you to Rob, Rich, Wayne & CTValleyRR. I appreciate your comments and will consider them as I move along on this, The general comment from you folks seems to be that I should just try them both and see which I prefer. OK, I’m willing to do that shortly.
As far as reusing rail with matte medium on it, as I said, I don’t think I will have to do this as this is likely my last layout. However, I can say that a paint brush I had with dried matte medium came out just like new after I wiped it with alcohol. Didn’t have to soak it either.
While I have used both, mostly matte medium, diluted 4-5 :1, I never separated the talc out. if you do get white areas (I had a couple of small areas), just mist with alcohol or hit the spots with a couple of spritzes of Dullcote and they’ll go away. I have had no problem cleaning the track/turnouts by rewetting with alcohol.
The main cause of noise though, is what’s under the track and the wheels. The quietest is cork roadbed glued to homasote or directly to plywood… A foam base glued to a plywood sub-base is better than just foam to gridwork (which is probably the loudest).
Wheels. If the layout environtment humidity/heat is stable and relatively dust-free, plastic wheels are fine and much quieter than metal. They do not create dirt! But if the previously mention conditions aren’t met, they can pick up dirt more easily. I have over 400 cars on the layout, only about 25% of them have metal wheels. I use CRC 2-26 to clean my track once or twice a year, this stuff really works and prevents dirt from settling on the track.
Getting the layout covered with scenery and ground foam will also make a big difference in sound level as it will break up and absorb much of the noise.
This is really the issue with sound. A solidly built layout will be much quieter than one assembled with less care, and rigid foam sheet will amplify the noise even worse. The noisiest layouts I encounter are those built on foam. If you really care about sound transmission look at the construction methods far more than the white glue vs matte medium debate.
Go with the matt, as you progress with the over sprays and such, it is nice to have a more waterproof product. It takes a long time for white glue to become brittle unless in the sun by the way. Me I use the WS stuff only because I can get it cheap usually and that way I don’t have to deal with mixing (not a big deal though).
Thanks for re-stating these points. I use mostly plastic wheels, my track is on cork-on-plywood or directly on plywood (3/4" and well-supported) and most of the scenic landforms are in place. There is no difference in noise levels between areas where ballast is secured by white glue and those secured with matte medium. Metal wheels are definitely noisier (and not at all a prototypical sound), so if you’re really concerned about noise levels, correct the environmental issues, then use plastic wheels. I don’t clean track, although, admittedly, I do run DC, which seems to be less finicky than DCC.
Actually my current layotu with plywood under the foam is LOUDER than my previous layotu which was foam on a grid. I did also set the foam inside the grid this time - using 1x3 crosspieces and 1x4’s the long way, so the foam sits down nearly an inch (less the plywood thickness) in the side rails. SO maybe that’s it. But my previous layotu was quieter. Neither is objectionable. The quietest part of my current layout is the bridge spannign the entryway. So make it as little of a duckunder as possible, I made it as thin as possible. It’s a pair of 1x4’s the long way, with 3 1x3’s laid on their sides across the bottom, and a piece of 2" foam glued on top of that. This keeps the 1x4’s stickign above the sides of this very narrow section to act as guardrails. No plywood. There’s a very noticeable reduction in sound as the train crosses that section between the adjoining sections which are both built as described.
Glue vs matte medium, that will come up soon. I’m not paying the price for the matte medium anymore, so when the current bottle runs out I will be using white glue for the rest, Probably end up with about half and half.
What is with this sound issue with folks. I have foam over plywood and I do hear my trains running but it isn’t like rock music blaring or finger nails on a chalk board or anything similar. Has anyone ever heard a 1:1 train roll quietly by their house? I once stayed at a RV park next to a railroad crossing where trains came by every hour or so. I never got much sleep staying there. Point is: trains are loud but thank goodness that is scaled down by size also.
I’m with you, Eaglescout. I’ve never had an issue with the quiet, sort of humming noise that my locos make when running over my layout. I’m usually playing music while I’m running trains, and the noise isn’t audible over the music.
Now, maybe if I were trying to similate only prototypical sounds, I would have an issue, I’m not sure. But the problem for most people is that the sound isn’t prototypical – not like the thrumming of a diesel or the whirring of an electric, and missing the “clank clank” of going over rail joints.
Noise should never be a consideration when building a model railroad. Real railroads are extremely loud, noisy and smelly. We should strive to model that aspect as well for maximum realism on our layouts. In fact, it’s probably best to play a live RR soundtrack at high volume when running the layout and it will cover over any “non-prototype” sounds very nicely.
As far as the white glue vs. matte medium, I agree with the concensus here. I’ve used both and I have gotten about equal results with each. I prefer the matte medium simply becuase I can buy it cheaper in bulk than the white glue. Six one way, half a dozen the other.
I’m sure sarcasm is just one more service you deliver free of charge. The point is I am not going to change my building design and choice of materials for a marginal reduction in the sound of miniature wheels rolling on miniature track while my radio, furnace, AC and who knows what else is adding to the mix. Wear some noise canceling headphones and you won’t have to listen to any of it.
Swing and a miss, my friend. Unless you’re trying to deliberately obfuscate the issue.
The point Eaglescout and I are making is that I’ve never operated or observed a layout where the “nonprototypical” sounds were a distraction. In fact, layouts with external sound effects or sound powered locos do disguise this very well.
Now, my hearing’s pretty acute. If I LISTEN for the sounds, yes, I’ll hear them, but they’re not obtrusive. So I have to woneder if people who are concerned with sound deadening aren’t listenig to their trains in a dead quiet room and wondering why they make so much noise. I’m certainly not putting down anyone for trying to minimize sound on their layout, merely wondering if they’re not expending a lot of effort for a little return.
I too wonder what’s with all the sound control talk. I never much worried about it.
As for the original question I prefer Matte Medium to White Glue. I find the MM easier to work with and the smell is pleasant too. I also think the end results turn out better. I have never gotten the white left overs from it either so seeing those comments are a first for me. Of course I don’t any less dilluted than 1:4 and many times use 1:8.
One thing that greatly helps me with it is using a light misting bottle. I just buy some cheap hair spray bottles and use them. If they get clogged a little alcohol and water mix will fix that. For putting down ballast and what not I use a syringe with a tube attached to direct the flow. I always prewet everything first with wet water.
Quite the contrary, I hit the ball so far out of the park you are still looking for the pitch![swg] I have long been a staunch advocate for the “fourth dimension” of rail modeling, which is real sound. Sound is tragicaly overlooked as a means of fulfilling our modeling desires; we spend time and money only on the visuals yet totaly ignore one of our most important senses. To achieve the “full package” of modeling a railroad we must not ignore the unique and evocative sounds of the railroad as a living entity. Far more than just a st
First of all, thanks to everyone for all the comments. I think I should explain more on why I’m asking the questions and a little background.
I’ve had 3 prior layouts. On all of them I used plywood base with a cork roadbed and High Ball ballast with white glue. The wheels on the rolling stock were plastic as well. The layouts were DC and really quite noisy but I got used to the noise and tuned it out as someone here suggested. Perhaps it was so loud because the hard shell scenery was connected to the roadbed? I don’t know.
With my new layout of about 600 feet of double track mainline (that’s 300’ each), I use NCE’s DCC PowerPro system and I have most of my locos with sound decoders. The reason I am concerned about the sound level of the track is that I want to be able to hear the locos easily without having to crank up the volume. I really dislike and find quite annoying, overly loud steam or diesel sounds blasting away which they would have to do to overcome the track noise if I constructed this layout the same as before. With a few loco’s running at the same time, it would be more like a roar. I think a loco’s sound level should be somewhat variable for the distance people are from it. With the sound cranked up very high, it could easily be heard far across the room and also blast one’s ears each time it came closer. I like it so that when the train is close, the sounds are distinctly clear. When far away, they are more muted and perhaps the steam whistle is heard more than the chuff is heard.
So, as before, my new layout has a plywood base with cork roadbed winding around pink foam scenery rather than hard shell and I have all my rolling stock converted to metal wheel sets. As many have suggested on this thread, I tried both white glue and matte medium as the ballast glue. <