My new house has a very generous, dry, clean, warm, lighted, heated crawl space.
I am thinking about putting a new layout down there. Humidity does not seem to be a problem and if need be I could put a small dehumidifier in there.
The following are questions more for home carpentry than HO layout. I have posted them in a home reno DIY forum, but thought I would ask here as well:
I will be putting down used carpet all over the concrete without an underlay…just for comfort. Should I put any plastic barrier on the concrete first? The area is nice and dry in all seasons and if necessary I will put a small dehumidifier in later.
To help if air quality becomes a problem would it be a good idea to put some venting to the outside from the crawlspace? I had this in past homes. This house seems not to have any. It would be easy.
I was thinking even of some vent with closeable louvres…perhaps electrically operated. Or should I wait to see if humidity increases as much as I think it might when used as a living area with me down there breathing heavily? Maybe it won’t be so bad.
Any ideas and tips on products would be very appreciated. Thanks.
It’s an intriguing concept. How high is the ceiling in this crawl space?
I would definitely go for venting. Depending on where you are in the country, a radon test might be a good idea, too. Unvented radon tends to accumulate in crawl spaces. Even if you don’t have a radon problem, you will use a lot of smelly chemiicals in the process of layout construction. These wouldn’t be a problem in a normal spare room or garage layout, but they could be annoying or uncomfortable in a sealed crawl space. And, you may have to give up eating chili.
Seal the concrete floor and walls. This will greatly reduce the dust level. Also, if you have exposed beams in your “ceiling,” think about putting drywall up there, too, or at least plastic sheeting to contain the dust.
Any cushion you can put under the carpet will help, both for softness and warmth. But, don’t put in so much cushion that you can’t roll things around. If this space isn’t compfortable to stand in, you’ll probably want a roll-around chair for surface work and a mechanic’s crawler for wiring below the layout.
I have seen many crawl spaces that could be used for such a purpose. Hopefully you do have a decent height maybe as much as 4 1/2 to 5ft. Anything less would be difficult, not only to build and maintain a layout, but would be tough just to operate.
As long as you know a history of this space continuing to stay high and dry even throughout the wetest months, I see no reason to not take advantage of it’s use.
misterB makes a good point about sealing the concrete and providing ventilation. I don’t know if you have full concrete wall/ block up to the sill/ floor framing or a portion of this support wall is wood framed. This should have been built with some sort of ventilation besides the obvious access (generally from a lowered level living space or garage). If not installation of sliding or hopper style windows on opposite walls will help for venting.
Even though you say this area is very dry, placing carpet on this concrete can pose some mold issues. I would suggest the use of a rubber backed indoor/ outdoor carpet if you are determined to use it.
Is there a heat source, such as the furnace or heat piping or duckwork? Is the floor above insulated and/ or have a moisture barrier? How good is the access to the space? How far is the electrical panel or other accessible electrical?
Yes, I know about radon. I agree with you on the vent for that.
Good idea about dust coming down. I found that in another crawl space that I had before. The carpet underlay in the living area above was disintegrating and sifting down thickly between subfloor sheets. At least this one has only hardwood above and haven’t noticed dust…but I may need some barrier.
I wonder about sealing the concrete floor. That is why I asked about putting a vapor barrier on the concrete below the carpet. Would that trap moisture in with me (bad), or trap it away from me (good)below from the cold ground/foundation?
The crawl space is just comfortable enough for me to sit on a chair without banging my head. But the standard gear for operation down there will be: hard hat (for when I get excited about a derailment and jump up), fire extinguisher, oxygen mask and googles (sold at fire safety stores). I don’t like the fact that it will have only one exit, but I can’t do anything about that and have to trust to smoke alarms above me and in the crawl space with me.
I am still pondering this and will proceed if I don’t hear any serious problems. Access is not pretty…but I have a builder’s ok to enlarge my trap door to 72 inches by 30 inches and have calculated I can get down any structural materials at least 8 foot long and probably more. Any layout is better than no layout…and this will allow me over 600 square feet of space to work with (a low stud wall dividing one third but I have plans for tunnels back and forth through that with scenic panels on the viewing side.)
Electrical is fine…it has baseboard heaters now, and lights. I will need to add to these but even if I need another circuit I have lots of space left on the circuit panel on the opposi
Sounds like you’ll be working on a track plan in the near future.
I wouldn’t try to place a vapor barrier on the concrete then carpet. This could add to trapped moisture under the membrane and cause mold/ mildew. Painting the concrete w/ UGL Drylock and an indoor outdoor carpet is a better choice. I personnally would do w/o the carpet overall and just seal the floor. Area rugs or mats might work better. If you ever experience any moisture issues, they can be removed.
Seal the concrete floor. There is a disagreement about putting poly down on a concrete floor. You have a cold surface(concrete floor) with a warm surface above it(carpeting/wood floor/etc). The poly will trap moisture above the poly and below the carpet due to the temp difference.
A lot of wood flooring manufacturers suggest poly over the concrete, and then double underlayment to nail the wood floor to. The problem is if the nails penetrate the poly, you will have moisture build up under the flooring/carpeting. This all depends on the are you live in - I would talk a carpeting store about this first. Here in Minnesota, condensation can be a real issue.
Sorry but crawl spaces are called that for a reason, NO! head room. How do expect to build an entire layout on you knees, bench work, scenery, wiring etc. not to mention yes it may be dry now and comfy but what about in the heat of the summer how hot is it going to get in there? Not really an ideal space for a train layout. If you were considering using it for hidden staging yard I could maybe taking advantage of the unused real estate in your house.but not very practical for every day operations.
A friend of mine has/had the same problem most of us do not enough space for a layout with a heard of youngsters running a much through his basement a train layout would have a life expediency of about 30 minutes before the angry hordes of little barbarians known as children would reak havoc on his subterranean empire. So while at his house a few weeks a go I brought up Cliff Powers MA&G website. Cliff took a very noval approach to a layout room. He had his 14’x32" structure built for him but you don’t have to go to that extreme unless you really want to. You can find pre-built large sheds/garages all over the place. I have a 12’x28’ one that cost under $3000 used it for a garage/shop for years until I built one. You could house a really nice layout in a building that size.
This is a pic from Cliff’s website of the home of the MA&G.
My friend called me to tell me had had just ordered his new train room and it was being delivered this coming weekend so make time for a work party. If one has the room outside it definitely makes for a really nice alternative layout space.
You may already know this, but if not, ask the builder if he put a vapor barrier under the concrete slab. That is the desirable location to prevent moisture migration from below the slab. Unless your crawl space becomes very humid, you probably will not experience condensation on the slab surface, so forget a vapor barrier under carpet. Seal the concrete as suggested (I’m not sure, but I believe Drylok is for walls, not floors). For floors use a latex floor enamel.
Most important consideration: a shallow crawl space will become claustrophobic during an extended period of occupancy. I have a 4’ clear space under the joists (gravel “floor”) and would not want to spend much time there even if it were 6’ clear above concrete!
Yes, it has been done. I remember reading an old MR, though I can’t recall which one-- but it was 40’s or 50’s I think, maybe early 60’s. The article was about a military guy who lived in base housing. He had O-gauge equipment and didn’t have anywhere to put it but down in the basement. The article talked about how he dug out room for himself to move around, set up yards and towns, dug tunnels, etc.
Then I remember reading about someone who built an O-gauge layout in a dirt basement. I don’t remember whether it was more of the same article or not, or another article. But it was also in an old MR.
I remember reading it and thinking that was a neat and clever way of finding space for a layout. The article is probably available via the Model Train Magazine Index. I’ll do a search for you and see if it comes up with anything…
I did a look and was not able to locate the article. I’ll see if I can find it again in my back issues. I know I saw it and I know it was MR.
Think about making this some sort of modular layout. The modules would be sized so that you could get them in and out of the crawlspace without too much difficulty. This would give you the chance to do most of your construction in a full-sized room, with plenty of headroom and no ventilation issues for glue, solvents, paints, soldering, and so on. You could build a permanent benchwork base for these modules in the crawl space, so you wouldn’t need transportable legs, etc.
If you’re clever about the design, you’ll be able to “take it with you” if you get a chance to move to a more comfortable layout space in the future. You could even design the modules to be somewhat interchangeable, with common “edge profiles,” so that you could rearrange them to suit a different room.
Thanks for all the info, fellows, especially on the sealing of the floor etc. etc.
And come to think of it, I believe there is poly under the slab. I can see lots of poly sticking up from under the 2x4 bases that the interior foundation studs sit on. That may be why the concrete seems so dry. It is cool to the touch, but the whole area seems dry. My wife’s office just bought an expensive new hand-held humidity sensor as well. I plan to use that a fair bit.
Don’t worry Allegaheny. Do you really think I would have been talked into a new house that I wasn’t able to build a new layout in?
I have built layouts in storage rooms with similar headroom before. There is actually room enough to build and add scenery and wiring. The layout will still be at 30 - 32 inch height and can be wired as any layout from below.
The new layout will use my pre-exisiting modular pieces which I can now get down the enlarged trap door. The new pieces will be primarily on 24 inch shelving conveniently hung off the perimeter stud walls and the center stud wall. That is 110+ linear feet of rr (counting tunnels) most to be double tracked plus my preexisting yards and townsite in other ends. Access to all sections of track can be maintained.
This will be lighted, heated, carpeted (either fully or with area rugs…or maybe something smoother because right now I can sit on an office chair with wheels and propel myself without hitting my head, the full 30 feet along the section to be the control end.
The problem will be a wealth of linear feet and having to buy boosters, and getting backdrops in place for the long runs. My la
Your heart is in the right place. There are few things a little girl wants more than a playhouse, and I’m sure it’s much easier to take care of than a pony. [(-D]
A builder explained to me recently that basement ‘slabs’ are actually very thin, and are only meant to protect the layer of poly that is placed over the soil below it, So, there should be poly there.
Even so, in my experience, a crawlspace means in some locations that the water table in the area is so high on average that a full basement would have frequent water incursions and be a real problem. In my region, a new home with a crawlspace means they couldn’t build a coded basement due to water table restrictions. But, if they couldn’t practicably put even a crawlspace there, how could it have passed inspection?
What I am saying is that the crawlspace should, if coded and inspected, meet the same resistive function to water incursion than would a deeper full basement. Perimeter drainage should be exactly the same, just not as deep as it would be with a full basement.
So the issues are dust, heat, ventilation, electrical supply, lighting, headroom after lighting, and moisture control/air circulation.
Just another thought to consider is emergency draining of household items. Dish washer, hot water tank, other supply pipes and sewer pipe all run through the crawlspace usually. Would hate to have your hotwater tank drain out all over a large section of your layout, or even worse, a sewer pipe breaks… [:P]
Thats a play house! I know people who would pay good rent to live in that…lol Simple solution you just need to get your daughter into model railroading and tell her daddy is going to build you a really BIG playhouse so we can go play trains in it. When you mentioned the over sized trap door I have this vision in my head of you below the floor running trains and people up stairs wondering where the noise is coming from. My wife reminded me of a house we looked at years back before purchasing the Ponderosa where a gentilemen build an O scale layout in a loft space at the back of a single car garage. You had to climb a ladder to get to the layout that looked like it belonged in the window of a 1950’s toy store. So I guess where there’s a will there’s a way.
A builder explained to me recently that basement ‘slabs’ are actually very thin, and are only meant to protect the layer of poly that is placed over the soil below it, So, there should be poly there.
Even so, in my experience, a crawlspace means in some locations that the water table in the area is so high on average that a full basement would have frequent water incursions and be a real problem. In my region, a new home with a crawlspace means they couldn’t build a coded basement due to water table
-Crandell
Thanks for the replies.
Yes, one has to be sure about water tables. Luckily in this area the drainage is superb on a good slope of glacial till. And this neighbourhood is a good 200 feet above the townsite on the valley floor. There isn’t a chance of water table problems or I wouldn’t even waste my time thinking of this space.
Also, the first thing I had done was move the hot water tank out from the space I needed to expand the access to the crawlspace and out into the garage. I never trust hot water tanks and cannot believe the places some builders put them for convenience. My sister had her tank “go” on the third floor of her townhouse while she was on holiday. Thirty thousand dollars and 3 months later the place was back to normal. I think I would have moved this tank even if I had no plans for the space beneath.
Just got the ok from the electrician today to run a new circuit for lighting and outlets into the space from the panel. He says it will take less than an hour for his apprentice to set up. And the circuit already used for the baseboard heater down ther
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