Anyone read the MRN review of the MTH DCS system?

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

Not wanting to start any sort of a flame out situation (which is usuall what any conversation involving MTH degrades into), but has anyone else read the review of the MTH DCS system in the new Model Railroad News? I have come to really enjoy this particular publication, and find the reviews they do to be very thorough and free of the spin you find in some other magazines. If you haven’t read through an issue, I highly recommend it.

That said, I think David Otte did a great job in going over the features and benefits of the DCS system. David is an admitted TMCC user but seems to shed very positive light on the DCS system. As to it’s use in other scales, he reserves really pointing out any DCC to DCS comparisons, but does make a great comment in the final thoughts section of the article and I quote:

“It is truly revolutionary in its user friendly design, and I would suggest that the DCC industry as a whole take a a good long look at DCS if they want to see where the future of command control is headed.”

I felt this to be a very powerful comment, especially coming from a publication that has a section that deals with DCC issues specifically. For myself it’s comforting to know that a reviewer feels the same way about the system as I do, and that many others now have access to a great review of a great product. Interested parties should definitely check it out… [:D]

Night all!

Jeff

2

Hello J,

Hopefully there won’t be a flame war.

You’re suggesting that the DCC industry take a look at DCS as a whole. Actually that’s been happening for several years! It’s a common practice for manufacturers to purchase competitor’s products, experiment with them, take the products apart, and look for comparitive ways to improve upon their own products. This is a common practice. I’m very sure MTH has done the same…they’d be foolish if they haven’t. They did it with their O gauge competition years back and since then lawsuits flew back and forth.

However, while the potential is there, DCS’s developer sent out Public Relations “signals” indicating that there was no intent by him nor his company to work with the NMRA nor license the technology for use by others (like QSI did with BLI). So while there may be some benefits to DCS, it seems that It’s still basically Beta vs. VHS.

As always, you make some good points J, and chances are that the DCC manufacturers will study the latest version of DCS when it hits the market. Of the MTH K4s sold, It is reasonable to assume that a batch will be purchased by Digitrax, Lenz, TCS, Soundtraxx, and NCE reps whom, of course, will take their new units to their testing labs for “careful dissecting” by their technicians. Since they are profitable, it’s likely each these DCC manufacturers will purchase more than one unit.

IMHO, though DCS for HO offers potential, it has “cornered itself” into a niche market. One model will be available, steam only, it’s expensive. Meanwhile, affordable DCC systems are being used around the globe, including Japan, Asia, Europe, and “Down Under”.

We also have to consider that in HO, a significant portion of customers model “Diesel”. So, again, this is an example of where MTH has worked itself into a “niche” market. At least for now many diesel modelers will not see the "extras

3

I don’t even think it’s Beta vs. VHS… Or even Apple vs. IBM.

Imagine, if you will, Apple trying to crack the personal computer market in 1995…15 years after IBM had come with the AT/XT. Or Beta trying to get into the video tape business 15 years after VHS. That’s how far behind the curve MTH is…

MTH should have released an HO version of DCS back when the first $20 decoders hit the market…IMHO that’s when DCC went mainstream. Instead, they have waited almost 10 years after the DH120 decoder to come out with anything…

Paul A. Cutler III

Weather Or No Go New Haven

4

I am quite certain that, when they finally do launch their HO DCS, they will sell in quantities and put some pressure on the market. There is already a plethora of DCC stuff from which to choose, so some people may be looking for an alternative. If they join this forum and laud the achievements in numbers, it will be hard to dispute.

We’ll just have to wait and see.

5

No offense Jeff, they can review til they’re blue, but if it doesn’t translate into sales, it doesn’t mean diddly.

Given all the discussion of the past, both friendly and non, the K-4 is going to leave MTH stuck in the starting gate on this product launch. Beside, it is more than a year overdue.

MTH has dug itself such a deep hole on this. Personally, I don’t see how they could ever climb out. I’m just trying to look at this realisticly as an observer. I have no use for the product, because I’m not in HO.

Even if I was in HO, I would stick to the mainstream. I have no use for the extra features it offers, and I would want variety in a diesel only roster. I’m sure that the majority of potential customers are of similar mind, and have no desire to to get involved

I can already get DCS in O gauge. I still don’t want it, because of it’s propriatary command codes.

6

As a general rule, people go with what’s broadly available, not with proprietary niche products, no matter how good that niche product is.

IMO, the biggest problem with DCS “taking over the market” has been MTH’s proprietary stance. The mindset of the technology world right now is open source and open standards. Incremental improvements that take a staunch proprietary stance will find themselves quickly dismissed by most as “too risky” or “too narrow” regardless of the feature set.

On the other hand, MTH could have made a real name for themselves (like Lenz) if they had approached the NMRA DCC committee with incremental improvements to DCC instead of being the proprietary replacement for DCC.

It’s just like the Dvorak keyboard, which is far superior to the clunky QWERTY keyboard we use on our computers. People haven’t flocked to the much easier and faster Dvorak keyboard – they stick with what’s familiar and “safe”.

DCC is way too entrenched at this point to be unseated by DCS, IMO.

7

Joe Fugate = Your statement is the equivilent to a touchdown in a Superbowl game!

8

I have posted on another forum about this subject, (OGRR) and the flames went like crazy!
The buzz at my Club about both DCS, and the K-4 is a big “SO WHAT!” as well as “Why do we need another K-4?”
I’m a a 2 rail O scaler. In a small way, I am closer to this debate than many in the smaller scales, and from my POV, MTH and to a lesser extent, Lionel are hurting the O scale hobby with these propratary systems. The WHOLE O scale community has been tarred with the brush of this “war” between these companies.
I had suggested (off the record) to some of the TCA leadership about setting up a command control board sililar to what the NMRA had done for DCC. No action.
The 3 rail world is a different species entirely, and the “box color loyality” runs deep. IMHO, Mr. Wolf underestimated the lack of “box color” in the HO world. Again IMHO, he is getting his wake up call with posts like these.

9

Super review and that is all I’ll say.[tup]

10

WHY do I get the feeling that ALL the poster’s so far - championing MTH - sound like they are on MTH’s payroll? REREAD jnichols’ post and see if it doen’t sound like an ‘Info-mmercial’.

“Revolutionary” … “powerful”… “future of”… and the use of “great” 3 times makes him sound like - - dare I use the word “Shill?” Naw… (Notice I said “Sound like”).

OBVIOUSLY this is more about money than principle, since lawsuits are involved.

11

Don, in Jeff’s defense, he has been the most reasonable and rational supporter of DCS, of anyone here, but I’m afraid he is on a Quixotic mission, whether he is an employee or just a loyal fan.

12

Don, well said! Even if MTH’s DCS was “far” superior to DCC, I still wouldn’t buy it because of the company that makes it. As i was reading the original post, I was thinking exactly what you did. Wonder what position at MTH the poster has…?

13

BIG_BOY_4055

“Quixotic”. Well said. Nicer than ‘Snake Oil’. May I use it?

DG

14

Antonio: The VHS vs BETA analogy is great, just about everyone can relate to it. but let me submit this list of names;
Ghengis Kahn
Napoleon Boneparte
Adolf Hitler
Benito Mousoulini
Bill Gates

Add to this, Mike Wolfe

What do they all have in common? They all thought they could take over the world. The DCC world is one of friendly competition and opprtunity for all, with NO ROOM for a bully on the block.
Sorry Mikey! I’ll let go of my PHP “hammerhead” when they pry it out of my cold dead fingers!!![:P]

15

Paul III

FYI only: Beta was way out first. VHS took over the market offering 6 hr recording, (Sony’s Beta cartridge could not do). 3 movies fit on a VHS.

  • Rivet Counter Don
16

Don, I bummed it off Webster… Feel free!!! [swg]

17

Honestly I don’t think this turned into a flame war at all… [:D] There were a couple of posts alluding to the relationship I may have to MTH, let me set the record straight…

I’m a programmer by trade and have been for the better part of 15 years. I have nothing to do with the model railroading manufacturers in any capacity other than as a consumer. Keep in mind however, I’m not a mainstream programmer and don’t mess around with computer software. I mainly deal with PLC’s and the like. These systems require a much broader range of understanding of hardware technologies than most software programmers have to deal with, especially with the A/V systems I’m currently working with. That said, toy train control systems don’t intimidate me in the least and the favorite part of this hobby for me is the electronics and control side by far.

On the other hand, most of the model railroaders I know are either retired or getting close, and most lack any sort of background in electronics of any kind. On any given night when I’m running trains in a club setting on a DCC equipped layout, I spend a huge amount of time going over DCC related programming and operation issues with a large number of these guys. Many times the questions I’m getting are things I discussed with the same guy just a week earlier, and I see how hard it is for these guys to understand and use this technology. As far as I’m concerned the DCC manufacturers have forgoten their target audience when designing the interfaces and methods required to run trains using their systems. Here is where MTH has hit the nail on the head… [;)]

Long story short, if you are good with electronics devices and like DCC that’s great! It’s a great technology that allows for a ton of expansion and the non-proprietary nature of it is probably less threatening to most folks. But for every compotent electronics savvy model railroader I know, there are a dozen guys waiting in the wings for something simpler and less intimidating to arrive. T

18

JNichols,

I agree that it’s likely the DCC manufacturers will check out the latest DCS version (if they’re not already), and adapt some of the “useful” features for DCC. The DCC manufacturers have no choice but to make the technology more user friendly as more modelers switch over to it. There’s plenty of back and forth banter on the various DCC forums. It’s a given that the manufacturers have to listen if they’re going to stay in the market. Improvements are going to be continuous.

You infer above about the “dozen guys waiting for something simpler and better”. I’m as green as they come and yet it seems to me that DCC is already much simpler to understand now then it was just 3 years ago. We have quite a few old timers at the model railroad club I joined----they don’t seem to be intimitdated and are adapting to and enjoying operating in DCC.

I agree that DCC is entrenched and is continuing to grow in popularity.

As mentioned, MTH, indeed could have been the “hero” a few years back and entered into the HO arena the right way…without the sledge hammer…

Maybe I’m being naive, but can you imagine if MTH had worked with the NMRA and proposed to “partner up” with a reputable company like Lenz to combine and improve the technologies? What could have been…

19

PCs have well over 90% of the market compared to Mac. Because Bill Gates licensed his product for a reasonable amount. Apple had the world by it’s tail and Macs in every school, but they were too greedy and would not license their software OR lower their prices. Now the only reason Mac is probably still around at all is because Bill Gates owns a big chunk of Mac, probably so they can’t say Windows has a total monopoly. “Better” technology wise has little to do with anything in the world of marketing.
Add to that type scenario the fact that MTH has alienated a large portion of their potential customer base. Right or wrong matters not, a lot of people’s perception is that MTH is the arrogant South end of a Northbound horse. This does not strike me as real smart, but what do I know. I think somebody better get down off their tall horse, get some knee pads, AND hire a PR consultant, if they expect to be a mainstream player.

20

Yes, Beta was better, but, Sony would not license Beta to other manufacturers, while VHS was an open architecture. (See where this is going??) The public wasn’t forced into anything, they were given a choice.

]" On any given night when I’m running trains in a club setting on a DCC equipped layout, I spend a huge amount of time going over DCC related programming and operation issues with a large number of these guys. Many times the questions I’m getting are things I discussed with the same guy just a week earlier, and I see how hard it is for these guys to understand and use this technology. As far as I’m concerned the DCC manufacturers have forgoten their target audience when designing the interfaces and methods required to run trains using their systems. Here is where MTH has hit the nail on the head… "

Funny, I don’t see this when out club operates, and we have folks ranging from 8 to 80, literally. Maybe it’s not the members, maybe its the DCC system you’re using.