Are toy train companies reaching out to youth... or are they...

Classic Toy Trains Forum
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Reaching out to balding overweight middle aged dudes (like me) who carry money clips with $100 bills (not like me)?

Actually, stole the topic from one of Brian’s replies to my toy train collecting post . Brian’s quote:

“It’s too bad that Lionel and the others don’t put more value and sincere effort in reaching the youth market and in making quality, value priced affordable trains that are works of art instead of worrying about the collector market and hoping the insane pricing/buying frenzy of a decade ago will return again.”

Well, there are plenty of ways that they COULD reach out more. Lionel (& other trains) could be featured on Sesame Street and other kids’ shows or sets could be donated by the toy train companies to retired people who could visit elementary schools and set up layouts for the kids and insert some math and science and history in with the display.

Yet, the sad truth is, the bottom line is the most important and the old guys with the money pay the bills. Still, better advertising of affordable starter sets could attract youth. And I firmly believe you need to hook them before age 8.

Dave Vergun

2

They’re reaching out to middle aged guys. They’re not even reaching out to people like me (I’m 29, with a house payment and a car payment, upper middle class, and I buy trains with the money most people my age spend at the bar on weekends. That won’t pay for a $1,000 loco…)

They’ve got some good starter sets. I posted this elsewhere, but in the hopes that someone with influence reads this… They need to advertise in magazines like Boy’s Life. A bold, aggressive ad: You can afford a genuine Lionel! Then tout the many advantages of O27, like being able to take the layout back down quickly and easily, having a layout in 3x5, having a decent layout in 4x8, better reliability than HO or N priced comparably… And at the bottom of the ad, sign off as Lionel, the Standard of the World since 1900. (Which isn’t true, but hey.)

Lionel is the only O gauge manufacturer with the name recognition to do this.

And then they need to get their starter sets into stores like Toys R Us and Target. They’ve got a good, inexpensive Thomas set and good starter sets with both diesel and steam engines, all retailing for under $200.

I also see K-Line has a couple battery-powered sets for $40 now. If they can get that into toy stores… Man. It could be huge. They promote the upgradability, which is good. I wi***hey’d plaster on the box, big enough to see, “Compatible with Lionel.” Yes, it makes K-Line look like a wannabe, but it also gives Dad some ideas. Especially if they’d mention that the set would be great for outdoor use. (Anyone have Maury Klein’s e-mail address? I wish someone would plant this outdoor idea for his $40 sets in his mind. If I could get more of his plastic track, I’d buy one for a no-hassle outdoor layout in a heartbeat. In fact I may do it anyway and just use rusted-beyond-other-use track outside.)

Product placement in movies helps, sure, but the main thing is reaching out to people who are already mildly interested, and make sure they know that it do

3

Dave,

My first set was a 2000 Lionel Construction set bought at ToysRUs for $99. No reverse or neutral; only 1 truck of the RS-3 powered; couldn’t pull 3 empty gondolas on flat track without wheel slippage; no smoke, no horn, no bell, DC power pak.

They need quality at affordable prices and better advertising. If you have quality and advertising and getting the msg to the right people, then you will be able to see in QUANTITY and price will come down.

Interestingly, that junky set got me hooked again after about 40 years of HO.

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Dave F;

See my rant/editorial in the “investments” thread. We are on the same wavelength
here! Lionel and most (but not all) of the toy train companies are more interested
in catering to the “investors”, “speculators”, “collectors” and just the quick easy
“mark” to get a quick kill than trying to cultivate a longterm relationship between a
customer and business.

There are, however, a couple of train companies that actually are producing a few
items that children can actually buy with their OWN money that they have without a
request to the parents for a home-equity line of credit to finance their purchases!

K-Line has some really nice items starting at $10 and going up gradually. I saw
some of these things at York and could see the PLAY VALUE in them. Ready-
Made-Toys has come out with that small affordable loco that is easily handled
by small people and is well made. For the middle-class person who actually has
to spend money on frivolous things like FOOD, SHELTER, etc. Williams has a
good line of affordable, dependable, well-made locos and rolling stock that will
last for a long time with minimal maintenance. K-Line has taken PLAY VALUE
an extra step by including accessories and figures with their complete sets, and
at the same time they are under-pricing the competition.

In the end I think it will be the companies like Williams, K-Line and RMT that will
survive after all of us “investors” and “collectors” are gone.

You are correct about advertising. Children still read the funnies and watch TV
(maybe too much) and that’s where the ads should be placed. The train comp-
anies of old advertised on TV, in childrens’ magazines, in parents’ magazines,
and had good displays in stores. THAT is what attracted the buyers! Instead,
today’s train companies place a few over-priced ads in specialty publications
that are not normally seen

5

I have always felt that the popularity of the real railroads have a large role to play in whether children like trains or not. The opportunities for exposure to real railroads is drying up. This whole situation reminds me of Silence Of The Lambs.

“How do we learn to covet?”
“We covet things we see everyday.”

Without the real railroads models are meaningless. This is why foreign prototypes don’t appeal to most Americans.

On the other hand, what would happen if we did expose kids to trains? Would they stop buying and playing video games?

Maybe the train manufacturers don’t feel that they need to waste money advertising.

They have us!!! WE are their advertising!!!

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Elliot;

Yes, you are right. We as “former children” (I will NEVER grow up, just grow old!)
have a certain duty to advertise our interests and hopefully, gain new members
to the hobby. I have seen your marvelous layout. It is a great communications tool!
However, if a company wants to sell a product on a continuing basis it, too, must
advertise, and advertise directly to the prospective customer base. ie…THE CHILD-
REN! We can preach all day long to our children about the wonderful Lionel this
and Marx that and Gilbert others that we played with when we were young, but un-
less the companies that ACTUALLY MAKE the products do some advertisement,
the it will be all for nought.

7

There’s lots of evidence that kids still find trains fascinating. Look at the popularity of Thomas the Tank Engine. Using Thomas as a way to “hook” young children into the hobby is something that the toy makers should be doing, but aren’t.

Plus kids may feel that trains are for little kids when they get older. After all, they were playing with Brio type Thomas trains when they were little 3 year olds.

I agree that the price of starter sets needs to come down, the quality needs to go up, and you need to be able to find these on the shelves in a Toys 'R Us or Kaybee Toys. And it would be nice if TMCC could be an option, or at least an easy add-on / upgrade.

I think the manufacturers saw the collectible craze & dollar signs went off in their eyes & they think they can make more by producing less. So long as fat, balding middle aged men like us (OK, I’m not balding, but I am fat & middle aged) are willing to spend the money, this change won’t happen.

Tony

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This is interesting! I belong to a couple of other train forums, and I “lurk”
at the “other” forum and what’s strange is that there are a LOT of people
who feel just like us and are talking about the situation in the very same
tone! On one site there is a thread about things heard at the latest York
meet regarding rumors of sales of train companies. I posted something
I heard while standing at a dealer booth in the Orange Hall. Another per-
son posted that he actually ASKED Mr. Bracy (CEO Lionel) to his face re-
garding the rumor and got the reply that “…Lionel is ALWAYS for sale…”!

That right there tells VOLUMES about the attitude of the major train com-
panies today! It’s all about PROFIT at the EXPENSE of the CUSTOMER!
A company that is truly interested in cultivating a customer base would
NOT have exhibited that kind of cavalier atitude towards a customer! A
REAL PROFIT comes from a REPEAT CUSTOMER who is treated with
RESPECT!

vitabile…

I thought I saw you post that you work(ed) for Chase Manhattan Bank.
Well, then you know what the terms “investment” and “outreach” mean.
The train companies (the majority) of today like ALL businesses today
are only interested in the quick profit. For all the high-priced CEO’s and
“educated” business and financial gurus, how come no-one can figure
out that there is MORE PROFIT in making ONE GOOD PRODUCT than
making MANY LOUSY PRODUCTS? Money is LOST in re-orders, repairs,
re-shipping, etc. Money is also lost when customers move on to other
suppliers of the same product. (Witness the auto, motorcycle and electronics
industries late of this country.)

WHY won’t the “smart guys” at these “companies” take notice?

Again, read my comments in the “toy trains as an investment” thread here.

9

Hi All,
I guess we will pop in with our two cents [2c]. If we look at our history, and Big Boy pointed out, Lionel always had a down turn in business as the real railroad also had a down turn in business.

For those of us who are old enough, how many of our fathers or uncles work on the railroads (1920 thru 1950). Maybe part of the reason they bought us trains was because the worked on them. But then again, back then, the railroads was the number one employer in the US.

Here is something else to think of, TMCC and DCS may have been one persons thought to add the video game to the trains for the computer kids. Play station 2 most probably cost as much if not more than these system, and we let the kids play with them. Hand the DCS unit to the 8 to 10 year olds and let them have some fun.

This is just some things to think of.


tom

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On a positive note; although toy train companies are not doing a really good job in reaching out, other companies are! Namely, Brio, Lego, and Thomas the Tank engine products as well as the TV series. How much these tiny tyke trains transfer to model and toy trains is anyone’s guess.

As to seeing real trains, or riding them, light rail connecting city with suburbs is probably the extent to which kids are exposed to trains. Also, there are a bunch of good children’s books on trains.

When I was growing up (actually it was made before my time), there was a cool Porky Pig cartoon, where he had a train race with another train. My colleague and I wwere just talking about that episode.

dav

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It has been years since I’ve seen a TV commercial for Lionel, much less any advertising in magazines (besides train related mags). The local Toys R Us has not stocked Lionel in several years.

Out of sight, out of mind . . .

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Well guys, if we really feel the need to get more kids involved, perhaps the answer is public train shows. We used to have a couple of local train shows at malls every year, but for whatever reason they just faded away. Like Brian said, and I have always known, a good interesting display will leave a lasting impression on the general public, regardless of age. There are a lot of groups who have built modular layouts over the years, who have no shows to do.

Are things like GATS the problem? The old mall shows were FREE to the public, and NO SELLING ALLOWED!!! The malls welcomed the shows, as a draw to their businesses, and seemed happy to host. Along comes GATS and changes the whole concept, renting a huge venue, and charging admission. I don’t want to sound like a hipocrite here, but doesn’t charging admision only to access a few displays and a ton of vendors seem like a problem.

At enterTRAINment the business started off selling NOTHING! The $2 admission was only to pay the rent and other expenses. Of course the idea was to make money, but because I made a bad choice of locations within the mall, that became an impossible struggle.

The mall management people thought my failure was the fault of my business plan, but to my dying day I will disagree. I expected 1% of the total mall traffic to pay the $2. The problem was that I only saw 10% of the total mall traffic in my location. My actual numbers were between 2% and 4% of people walking past, stopped and paid, depending on the day of the week. A better location within the mall, where perhaps 30% of total traffic passed, and I might still be there today, long after the failure of the Great Train Store.

The Lionel big wigs of the day visited enterTRAINment, and seemed impressed, but chose to do nothing to help or support the effort. It was a business decision. As for Lionel “always being for sale”, I think that is a very sad comment on business values today. I’ll bet Joshua Cowen is rolling in his grave!!!

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I don’t believe GATS, or other pay to enter venues, are the problem. This past weekend my town had its first ever train show. It was produced by GATS. I suppect it will be the last as attendance was poor, as I expected. This area is not a big hobby area. However, I attended both days and I believe their were more parents and kids poping in for a look than people like me that were combing through the displays looking for that special something. The kids were drawn to two things. The first were the dealers that had Brio and Thomas items. The second were the four or five display layouts. The kids were specifically drawn to the simple Lionel layout. N held little facination. HO a bit more but much less than the O. After watching the layouts the families would drift around looking for stater sets and engines. Some left as soon as they noticed the a single O scale engine was $250 - $1000+. The ones that got past the engine sticker shock checked on O gage starter sets. The absolute cheapest I found was $120 for the most basic Lionel. Not bad but factor in an operating accessory and a remote control track and you have busted the $200 barrier. A parent can buy a Game Cube, PS2 or X-Box for less than that and know their child will enjoy it.

Heck my 9 year old son and his best friend would love to play with one of Lionel’s miltary train sets, heck I’d like to have one to play with, but $400 ± , GEEZ!

Overheard one dad with a daughter that was extremely interested in trains talking with a dealer. The dad was supprised Lionel was still in business. Had no idea they were still around. Thedad saw the $250 sticker on a rail sounds equiped engine and commented, “We were able to try remote control airplanes and cars for less than that. I had no idea they were that much. Seems a bit much for a single engine.” The dealer, a good guy I had bought from the previous day, admitted he had not brought any starter sets and gave the girl a 2003V2 catalog.

I would like to see som

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The idea of a loss leader is very interesting!!! Maybe the older crowd would be willing to pay something like $2 per $100 extra to support such a program. Of course I don’t really see why we should have to do something like this, but making such an offer may be the only way to get Lionel’s attention on this issue. There is a drawback though, baiting beginners with low prices may backfire by only delaying the sticker shock until the expansion phase.

As for GATS, I really don’t know if they have been helpful or harmful to the hobby. On the one hand they may be the cause of some of the public mall shows drying up, by baiting away the groups that used to do those shows for free, and charging admission to see them then paying them for participating. On the other hand putting all the vendors together is like having a train superstore that travels.

15

The comments about the prices of trains are, in my opnion, spot on. Prices are the problem. Yes, you CAN buy a radio controlled car, ready to run, for less than the price of a single scale Lionel engine withi TMCC & Railsounds. These toys are indeed the competition that Lionel & the others are up against for the family dollars. Just as slot cars were the competition in the 60s.

Last year, when I bought my son his Great Train Robbery set, I had only recently found out that Lionel was still in business, much as that father that smcrawford mentioned. I was taken aback at the cost of the Lionel starter sets in the hobby shop at the time. It was only after buying & having to return a Bachmann HO set that we went for the Lionel set.

Do I regret the decision? No. But let me tell you, I sure as shooting wouldn’t complain if the volumes went up & the prices came down.

ChesBchRy:

Yep, I worked for Chase Manhattan for 4.5 years, starting in March, 1990. The problem, I believe, is that modern american business is too focused on the bottom line & looking for ways to “cut expenses” that involves making fewer workers do more work.

I’m not a big fan of american business practices.

Tony

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How many “kids” under the age of 20 carry $100 bils in thier wallets/purses??? Unless their dealin drugs, the answer is ZERO!!! How many train OEM’s offer a complete train set with sound, lights, reverse, ect for $ 100…ZERO!

The OEM’s are catering to the Collector NOT the train operator. Look at how many high end ($ 1K +) locomotives they offer verses “affordable” (under $ 200) engines. The math is easy. They (OEM’s) know where the $$$ are at and they are targeting that market.

Anyone care to guess where thier market will be in 10 or 20 years when the “collector” of today is “takin the dirt nap”??? I see many CHEAP train auctions coming on the horizon if KIDS are not getting involved NOW!!

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Hi
I normaly stay away from toy rains comment but this one caught my interest.
How do toy trains compete with the latest shot it up blow it up computor game.
When toy trains cost more than the games set up.
Have any of you taken a toy train to the local Model railway exhibition,
to show the public.
I might point out that that a model railway is only a toy train built too a set scale throughout and most railway modelers started with a toy trains.
Most of the toy trains I have seen lately are plastic made in china rubbish
so what chance have you got?
What is need is the reputable toy companies to bring their prices down
ADD PLAY VALUE, my fondest toy train memory is a Triang giraffe car that the giraffe pulled its head down on aproaching a tunnel.
far more important forget about the big kids and collectors and get back too
marketing too children at pocket money prices.
The big kids will still buy them regardless as that is their hobby and the collectors will still collect.
But if the manufacturers don’t recapture the childrens maket then none of us
toy or model hobbiest will have anything to buy as the companies will have gone broke.
Well that must be at least fifty cents worth
appologies for shocking spelling.
regardsJohn

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ken (and others here)…

This is an interesting topic. As I said earlier, apparently many people are getting
the same idea all at once! Maybe the time for a turn-around is nearer than we
think! Other sites are showing the same emotions and comments. Even the big
“fraternity” site voices these same concerns. The train companies are not the
only ones propogating the “collector” and “investor” myth. I just received my TCA
Newsletter today and what do I see but a letter ba a member in the “Sound Off”
column regarding the unaffordable prices of TCA merchandise and the suggestion
that TCA offer more reasonably priced items to real working-stiff folk who want to
enjoy the hobby. On another page TCA shows a “membership thermometer” that
record a loss of almost 1000 members in the last 4 years alone. Also the pages
of the TCA publications are routinely acknowledging the passing of ever-growing
numbers of members. Granted TCA has begun trying to cultivate a “renewable
resource” by starting the TCA “Kids Club” (hate that word “kids”!). Now maybe the
organization will lobby on behalf of its members to the train companies about
offering a more affordable line of rolling stock. ( We can dream, can’t we?) On
the other hand, I have noticed over the last 5-8 years of attending York (been going
for 20 years) that less people are actually buying and more are just looking. The
vendors are beginning to take notice as well. I noticed a definite attitude shift in a
lot of them. Yes, the big companies are still aloof and country-club like, but the
smaller cottage-industry guys are more open to suggestions. For all of Mike Wolf’s
faults (real or perceived) he always is there and always tries to talk to ordinary
people who visit his booth. The folks at K-Line’s display were very helpful and infor-
mative. One fellow I talked to gave me his personal business card and even took

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I’m not sure why everyone is wishing for prices to come down here. It ain’t gonna happen. If you really believe that it could, you’re kidding yourself. Beside, I think if you adjust for inflation, you won’t find prices today much different those 50, 75, or even 100 years ago. The numbers seem large, but they seemed large back then too. People’s priorities were different then. Maybe the trains haven’t changed, we have. Did we hear out parents complain about the prices? Maybe this is the mentality of the manufacturers. Maybe this is why they needed to move production to China, to keep costs in line with those of the past.

Our government prides itself on it’s ability to keep inflation low. But over time it adds up. Think about things cost back in the 50’s, then compare.

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Elliot;

I think that we are all just wondering why, if a couple of train manufacturers
can offer reasonably priced locos, cars and accessories for the “average
bear”, then why can’t the others? You have to admit that Mr. Klein isn’t won-
dering where his next meal is coming from…he’s doing all right. The guys
at RMT are doing well as a business. Mike wolf is offering SOME stuff for the
lower price market and he’s not starving or laying off anyone. If they can do
it, then so can the bigger companies like Lionel, Atlas, et al. Even when ad-
justed for “inflation” and such, today’s trains are more expensive than their
predecessors. When we were young we as children could actually save our
allowances, grass cutting/snow shovelling, and other small cash and buy
at least SOME things ourselves. That is no longer possible for today’s child-
ren, even though they have more money that we had back then. The gripe
today is that even ADULTS who are making UPPER MIDDLE CLASS salaries
cannot comfortably afford to indulge in this hobby, let alone introduce a child
to it. The other gripe is that the manufacturers would rather produce a badly-
working museum-detailed “shelf model” for the “discerning collector and in-
vestor” than a good quality, sturdy, decently detailed, reliable train set that can
be affordable by someone other than a member of the Fortune 500 and operated
by someone who does not possess and engineering degree from MIT.

The museum-detailed models are wonderful and have their rightful place in the
hobby by the people who can afford such, but there is so much wasted potential
by not also offering a nice, well proportioned, cast-in-detailed loco and train set
using proven simple technology to ordinary people looking for a hobby that can
involve everyone in the family. Williams is a good example of this. He can make
a very nice loco that is