This subject is nearly as old as dirt - seen it in 50+ year old magazines even.
Part of the issue is part of how diesels overcame steam int he first place - steam locos WERE mostly custom jobs. Sure companies like Baldwin had their ‘catalog’ locos but other than small market builds, most railroads had them customized to their specific designs. Even the supposed ‘standard’ USRA designs - Railroad X may have gotten exact USRA designs, but Railroad Y got them with say a modified trailer truck. And 5 years later, Railroad X had modified all theirs with some new appliance. So we get ‘average’ models with some of the easily swapped detail parts modified per road name as needed, but the basic boiler and chassis remains the same.Sure there’s some demand for absolute accuracy, but the volume is definitely too low to make such things in plastic tooling. There’s still a market for brass, which can pull off that level of detail.
Randy, I’m not expecting absolute accuracy by any measure.
I said in the beginning of this thread that I would even overlook the wrong boiler and incorrect driver size if simple signature details like the bell and headlight location and the Delta trailing truck were correct.
I have long advocated the production of steam loco models that could be easily adapted to represent lots of different prototypes and that the manufacturers could easily do this.
Bachmann has shown us it is possible, and at least for while, they did it on a moderately large scale with a number of models.
Broadway could have done it with these Mikado’s and Pacific’s. Later I will see if I can get some pictures up of my modified BLI Mikes and Pacific
Bachmann put three different headlights, two different cabs, tenders, sand domes, and pilots on its Berkshire to get four versi
Hmm, the review of the BLI Heavy Pacific went out of the way to mention it had the correct trrailing truck - the Delta was a later addition by the railroad, the model is an as-built. Shouldn;t be too difficult for them to get a Delta trailing truck tooled up and then offer later variations as well as some that may have had the Delta as-built. They’ve done it in the past, releasing a series of models done either as the as-built or a later in life version, then come back to the same model and released a different variation.
Tom, my point exactly. I’m not even asking for that level of accuracy - but of course the model in question is not some flashy, rare, out of the ordinary monster.
But rather just one of the most visable, day to day, successful and longest lasting 20 locos in the Mid Atlantic region on America’s first railroad. That pulled all sorts of famous and not so famous passenger trains out of important cities like Washington, Batlimore, Philly, New York, Chicago, etc, etc.
But I know the real problem - If one of these plastic manufacturers actually made a good P7, they would be pressured to make some of those unique B&O passenger cars to go with it.
Passenger cars are generally more “custom built” than steam locos were - another prototype “accuracy” topic for another day.
It gets back again to speaking with your wallet. If Manufacturer A doesn’t manufacture a given model to your satisfaction but you can reasonably modify it with not a lot of effort, then it makes sense to buy and modify it. If it does take a considerable amount of effort or you just don’t want to go to the effort of modifying it, then it makes sense NOT to buy it. Your options? You can either ask Manufacturer A to offer the said modifications for a possible future release…or wait until Manufacturer B comes out with a close enough proximity of the given model.
Although I haven’t looked at the model very closely, the only Bachmann NYC steamer that I could reasonably buy without needing MAJOR modifications is one of their Niagaras. However, since I already have a BLI Blueline Niagara (that will do 0.5 sMPH on speed step 001), I have no need or desire for another one - at present.
BLI has more than met my need in regards of obtaining good to very good models for my NYC roster. Despite needing some tweaking, they’ve generally performed well. Until Bachmann releases an NYC model to my liking, I’ll keep buying my locomotives from BLI.
Sheldon - I fully understand your point. For the price we have to pay for those “mass-produced” models nowadays, we can except them to be fair representations of their prototype. Given the vast amount of variations possible, this is nearly a hopeless task for any manufacturer.
I am afraid we will have to live with those foobies, unless we are prepared to honor the extra effort with a steep surcharge to the price.
Being a detail fanatic myself, I had a hard time to redirect my thinking. My eyes are beginning to age, making it impossible to see all those details out of a normal viewing distance. I need to take close-up shots to see most of what I paid for. I have learned to settle with less detail, but traded that in for more a overall atmosphere and authenticity of my layout. I no longer care that the HO cop on the street wears the wrong badge [swg]
Tom, I understand and agree completely. And that is why most of my steam locos are Bachmann.
I have no interest in PRR or NYC, prototypes. Or much else that Broadway has selected.
I have a few Broadway locos - two Reading T-1 4-8-4’s, one N&W Class A 2-6-6-4, two USRA heavy Mikado’s, and now one of these Pacific’s - all lettered ATLANTIC CENTRAL. Most of the rest is either too “unique”, or too “west coast” to fit my theme. And I don’t buy any really long wheelbase monsters like the C&O 2-10-4.
And I only have that many of their locos because I freelance!
Someone asked earlier about Spectrum engines and problems caused by bad engineering or why you can’t just change this or that. Sometimes it is a clearance issue, hole to mount y rear truck works because it was designed that way, x truck dose not because it now hits detail or dose something like derail backing up do to it being too close to drivers or -------, you get the idea. Even such things as packaging, a loco with x truck needs new design of packaging. As far as bad design, springs that are too stiff or not stiff enough, clearance issues, biggest one is wiring, on many I had to stuff the excess back into the shell as that what was causing derailments, only discovered that because I had one of a type that ran perfectly and two that would derail, went over with a fine tooth comb to find differences, this was the only difference and the reason for this part is little things can mess with the reliability of a steam engine, they can be quite fickle!!!
Tom - objection, your honor. I gave up on calling myself a model railroader. I think of myself as an illusionist, creating miniatures worlds, where railroads just happen to be a focus.
After a quick wade through all this, I think my answer to Sheldon is, no, we are marking time. You still get what you want from Bachmann, or at least what you’re willing to pay for, and even MTH is apparently still doing pretty well in the market to which it caters. BLI is pumping out locmotives at an almost alarming rate suddenly, and I think they’re doing pretty well for themselves.
Ergo, not going backwards, just marking time. And if everyone can find a way to have fun buying what appeals to them, whether from Bachmann or MTH, or still finding the materials to bash or scratch their own, the hobby can’t be losing much ground.
Find your interest and have a go at it…If its kit building,that’s your enjoyment…If its wanting 110% correct models that’s your enjoyment.If its buying RTR and operation is your goal then that’s your fun…The list is endless on the direction we can go in the hobby…Nobody will fault you for choosing the path you take in the hobby.
Like Crandell said buy what appeals to you and have fun…
Guess I am lucky and a number of others, too, I would imagine. I have to pay top dollar for high scale, detailed C-19 consols and K-27 mikes and do my best to destroy their proto nature, (rip off a pilot and redo or alter original looks to be realistic to my fanatsy road or make excuses about leasing motive power from the D&RGW, RGS, etc.
I did this with Y6b’s on my old HO pike wrecking their identity as much as possible with cal-scale stuff once I ripped off the proto goodies.
Still, I feel sorry for the guys who want proto and don’t get it.
Like you, I model mostly steam, my cutoff date is 1950. I have 6 steamers to every diesel. Most of the diesels are painted for other proto roads, or my shortline. IIRC, I have only 3 diesels in SRR livery. One of these will have to be re-painted back to the color it would have been in 1950.
But after all the discussion about the cost of tooling up for a correct Delta truck, wouldn’t the delta truck off of the K4 work? Is there something special about it that prevents it from being used? Seems to me that since they have the K4, they have the tooling already. What’s the hold-up?
Most of my steamers are brass, not because of the details, or their running abilities, its because these are the only way to get engines that are correct for the Southern. The are, however 3 exceptions, The Bachmann 2-10-2, light 4-8-2, and believe it or not, the Spectrum 4-4-0, in SRR livery is a match for the same engine its numbered.
I have no problem buying a loco that is close, as I do re-detail many of my locos, even the brass ones.
Overall I totally agree with your original point. Even to me, a major detail like the trailing truck, I feel that the detail should match the loco during most of its service life. If that means using another truck different from the “as-built”, then so be it. I have never seen a pic of the B&O pacific that you were referring to, with a USRA trailing truck. They were all Deltas.
Thanks for your thoughts. Actually, the PRR trailing truck is not a Commonwealth built Delta, it is the PRR’s own hybrid design. And if you look closely at them you will see several differences.
The “arms” of the Delta are straight. The arms of the PRR design have downward “bow” in them.
And in prototype application they work differently. Delta trailing trucks support the rear of the loco at the rear of the trailing truck - two big rollers ride on a cross plate under the very end of the frame at the back of the firebox.
The PRR design actually supports the frame on the arms, in front of the trailing truck axle, like a lever. If you look close at a K4 you can see the plate on the frame that rides on a matching plate on the arms of the truck.
I used Delta trailing trucks from the original Athearn Genesis Pacific’s for both my BLI Mikes and the Pacific. I will try to get some photos up soon.
Yes, the point is it would have been pretty easy for them to get that part right, and the availability of that alternate part may have driven a lot of sales - who knows.
