After incorporating 9 stainless steel Aristocraft wide radius switches into my backyard layout, I found that my Aristo Heavyweight coaches were derailing at them. After studying various blogs, I found one from Tom Weaver (6-29-10) on the Aristocraft forum that pointed out several improvements (6 in all) that could be made to them. I pulled up all the switches and reworked every one. (P.S. Tom, it took a lot more time than 15 Min. each.) Now the railroad is back together and the Heavyweights still derail at the frog.
I have now checked the switches with my Kadee G scale track gauge. I find that the distance between rails is too narrow at the frog forcing the wheels up on the top of the frog and then off the track! This seems to be consistent on all switches, some worse than others. SO NOW WHAT?
The only thought I have is to cut the outside tie plates off the outer rails and bend the rail out to meet code. Does anyone have a better idea? I am very disappointed that Aristocraft could not get this very important dimension correct in manufacture.
I have about 15 or 20 WR switches. The gauge is tight on many of them.
But I want to address your measuring, the Kadee gauge is not good enough, you should buy the $10 Aristo gauge. If you want to measure back to back, you should buy a cheap digital vernier caliper.
Greg: Wow, I would have thought that the Kadee was superior! I respect your input and will purchase an Aristo gauge. I hope your website shows the proper wheel to wheel distance since I set all my freight car metal wheels to the Kadee prior to mounting them. I still haven’t figured out how to even get the Heavyweight trucks apart.
In terms of back to back spacing, the most critical measurement through a turnout, instead of measuring the back to back or the gage, it measures the flange to flange, which depends on flange contour and the way the flanges fits into the two notches. It’s a very poor way to measure this.
The Aristo gauge measures back to back minimum and maximum.
The wheels on the heavyweights… I though you could pry the wheel sets out.
Read my page on standards, and where I review the Kadee and Aristo gauges:
First replace the plastic frog with the new one available direct from Airistocraft. About $1 each. Second if they are the three axle heavyweight trucks, remove the center axles and they will run far smoother. (Same is true of 3 axle heavyweights in HO scale!). Finally regauge your wheels just to be sure.
You only need to replace the frog if the plastic part of the frog is higher than the 2 short rails that connect to it. The updated frog has been production for a while now.
There’s a lot more to do, and in a different order.
If you gauge your wheels properly, be prepared to shim the guardrails…
Lastly, Aristo heavyweights will run through the switches just fine, there are some tips on the HWs that should be followed first. I have NEVER seen anyone who was forced to remove the center axle… normally it’s a lubrication issue or a trackwork issue.
Just finished a long thread on MLS where everyone was advising to remove center axle… did not help, it was a trackwork issue.
See my site on WR switches to get all the tips and techniques, gathered over a number of years and direct experience.
Not trying to start a war, but there’s a lot more to it.
I have run both my streamline and heavyweights separetly and all together ( 11 ) with no problems The only change I made was to repace the frog’s and regage most of the wheels I have run at a scale speed of 85MPH with out incident.
Dave
BTW all of my trains run thru at least 3 of my 4 switchs
Thanks to all for your comments and advice on my wide radius switch issues. I purchased an Aristocraft gauge and investigated the switches using it. After all my efforts on improving these switches, I discovered that the real problem was that the rail spacing between the stock rails and the point closure rails (two short rails meeting the back of the frog) was too narrow. This involved removing the switches off the ground, disassembling the point closure rails and grinding the BACK of the rails where they meet the frog. This is no small task with stainless rails! I tried grinding the front of the rails with a tungsten carbide Dremel bit but one $9 bit per switch was too expensive. My bench grinder finally got the job done. It is amazing that a manufacturer would get this critical dimension wrong. My heavyweights AND freight cars were riding up on the point where the point closure rail met the point. This along with the need to modify the NEW frogs (top higher than adjacent rails) that Aristo made my buy and pay shipping for is discouraging. I still have several more switches to modify but so far those that are completed have performed well.
I also found that Aristo wheel set are also way out of spec.
I regauged the wheel sets. I used a caliper to measure between the rails and use that measurement to the rail side of the flange.
Then I also found that there is a lot of slop between the wheel set and the truck frames. I found some small washers and placed them on the wheel axle points 1 to 3 on each side of the wheel set.
I’m in exactly the same boat (or on the same ss aristocraft train track, would be a more appropriate metaphor).
My two-axle heavyweights derail every single time; my three-axles derail every single time.
My heavy three-truck shay climbs over whatever the impediment is and goes along.
I need to really figure out what the heck is going on at the point of contact where the derailment activity starts, but what I know for sure so far is that two or three axles make no difference.
Use the Aristocraft gauge to check the various dimensions of the switch especially the width between the rails. Also check the flange to flange spacing on the wheels. I received a separate e-mail off of the forum mentioning lubricating the points where the truck frames contact the bottom of the car. A product called Slipit was recommended for this. They are in NY and you can order on-line. I have not tried this yet although I bought some. This is supposed to be a one-time application to greatly improve the truck movement as it swivels.
I made truck/wheel back to back gauge by using a chunck of 1X2 with two raps of duck tape cost $0.00 this has worked well. one end has 1 less rap and serves as the minamum distance the other end is the max spaceing. ALL of my rolling that is in use has been checked and adjusted ( as needed ). I only have derail’s when I go to fast or am not paying attenion to running train’s. The last derail i had was jun 15 2011. that one cost me one B-mann 2-8-0 when it slamed into the derailed cars. ( Burned cuircut board ) That was also the last time I ran any train’s, So now i am ready, but the leaves have fallen and I can’t find RR.
Personally, I’m still going to try to salvage my switches, but I thought I might share with you the following:
I talked to a couple of old-timers at our garden railway society, and it turns out, we had the same switches on the museum layout and after many attempts to get the Aristo switches to work adequately and consistently over time, including trying many of the suggestions here listed in this forum, decided on the NOW WHAT?
They replaced them with “good ole reliable” LGB switches.
I am trying to picture the scene. A three truck shay pulling three axle, heavyweight coaches. Which railway ran narrow gauge heavyweight coaches behind a Shay?
Maybe Aristo switches have ‘logic control’ like some computers…
Ha! Ha! Actually…ummm…it’s gold miners giving their fancy relatives from back east a tour of the back-country, and they just happened to have a couple of abandoned heavyweights laying around? Okay, maybe NOT. To tell you the truth if you want to talk about the “logic” of this goofy situation, it bothers me a lot more that the Shay is grotesquely oversized at 1:20 compared to the 1:29 heavyweights!?
No, seriously, I’m testing my newly-laid track and curves with the longest and most difficult pieces of equipment I have to make sure the radii work without looking toy-like and to make sure the switches work…as you can see I discovered in addition that there’s a bit of a clearance issue under the porch fascia (cured).
I’m now testing the Alco PA-1 and B-1 pulling five two- and three-axle heavyweights, which was something, while not very common over a long period of time, that did happen on several old prototype lines. (We were talking in another thread here about how to couple the heavyweights closely together s
It’s interesting how this thread is starting to drift off the subject. In regard to the LGB switches, I have heard someone else say that they are superior. Do they make a stainless steel switch? Regardless, discarding all my switches and buying new should be a last resort. Next summer’s garden railroad season should let me know if I have really solved my problem.
‘Point’ taken. Back on topic. Has any one challenged Aristo to make good on these obviously flawed turnouts? Has anyone sent them back under warranty? They obviously do not do the job for which they were intended.
Indeed back on topic, time to re-rail, thank you…I talked to Mark at Silver State Trains, who has a lot of experience, while I was making an unrelated purchase and just for fun I asked him if the brass Aristo wide-radius switches were any better than the stainless steel and he said flat out NO.
So if you’re thinking maybe the brass switches are any better, like I was thinking maybe, forget it.
This weekend I’m going to try to “fix” my worst switch…I’ll let you know how it goes.
I’m not sure about everyone else but since I started this topic, my switches are what Aristo calls wide radius switches which are 10’ diameter. They are stainless steel and purchased at different times. I believe they are all of the latest design except perhaps for the deeper frog flange.