I have compared three companies, Intermountain, Walthers Proto, and Arrowhead.
The first two offer undecorated kits at $10+ less than RTR, where Walthers is a Timesaver decorated kit. Arrowhead sells at the same price.
That shows the kits can be sold at lower prices than RTR despite the changes you describe.
AFAIK all these RTR models are painted. The print pads don’t fall from the sky either. A year or so ago was a discussion about the high costs of some ScaleTrains containers. The manufacturer’s reply was that the printing process needing a number of pads and print steps per side brought the price up.
I think Arrowhead in this case keeps as profit what the save on the kits. As long as there are modelers will to buy kits they need at almost any price it works.
As long as it works it is ok. If not it is no great loss with the small kit numbers sold.
Regards, Volker
I wouldn’t characterized it quite that way, that the Arrowhead kit is aimed at people who “don’t care about the price”. Many probably do care about the price which is not at all insignificant, but it’s more a matter of it being worth it do them to invest in the cost of the AH kit to meet goals they have.
Think of it this way; it’s a matter of picking your poison and what has “value” to you and how you choose to allocate money. There are people who buy expensive stuff in all likihood who by someone elses standards, can’t “afford” it. In otherwords, some may live, quite literally, on the edge financially because they choose to buy expensive things rather than save money to have a cushion or funds for whatever should the need arise, and live hand to mouth. Others may be able to buy expensive things regularly and still have plenty of money in savings. As my wife often reminds me, just because you see people with flashy things isn’t indicitive of pure wealth. Have you ever seen the bumper sticker on cars: I owe, I owe, so off to work I go".
So my point is, some will loudly complain that this new Arrowhead hopper is too expensive for them and they state they are not buying any. I say, well, maybe. Or maybe that model isn’t your “poison” or central enough to your Model RR needs or goals for you to put out “the big bucks” to have it. Yet I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these people drop some major bucks on other things that are not necessary to life - what ever it is - be it toys of your choosing - don’t want to name anything cause the topic will quickly veer off into whatever is named as tends to happen so easily here.
VOLKER LANDWEHR
I agree with riogrande5761 that the kit isn’t aimed at me. It is aimed at those who don’t care about the price and can afford it.
I wouldn’t characterized it quite that way, that the Arrowhead kit is aimed at people who “don’t care about the price”. Many probably do care about the price which is not at all insignificant, but it’s more a matter of it being worth it do them to invest in the cost of the AH kit to meet goals they have.
Think of it this way; it’s a matter of picking your poison and what has “value” to you and how you choose to allocate money. There are people who buy expensive stuff in all likihood who by someone elses standards, can’t “afford” it. In otherwords, some may live, quite literally, on the edge financially because they choose to buy expensive things rather than save money to have a cushion or funds for whatever should the need arise, and live hand to mouth. Others may be able to buy expensive things regularly and still have plenty of money in savings. As my wife often reminds me, just because you see people with flashy things isn’t indicitive of pure wealth. Have you ever seen the bumper sticker on cars: I owe, I owe, so off to work I go".
So my point is, some will loudly complain that this new Arrowhead hopper is too expensive for them and they state they are not buying any. I say, well, maybe. Or maybe that model isn’t your “poison” or central enough to your Model RR needs or goals for you to put out “the big bucks” to have it. Yet I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these people drop some major bucks on other things that are not necessary to life
In my first post in this thread I linked the video and the shop page and wrote
V.L.: For me it’s not clear if the painted models are RTR or kits. The undecorated models are kit but cost just $0.45 less than the painted.
BigDaddy posted an answer from Arrowhead that I misunderstood as I had different expectations: “Thank you for pointing this out. No, that is actually a mistake on part. Undecorated kits are meant to be the same price as the RTR versions, but I won’t change it now.”
V.L.: I thought, the kits were intended to be less expensive. Now your former post makes sense.
Than came Atlantic Central suggesting that the same price for unpainted, undecorated kit and RTR model is natural and inevitable.
I remembered that I bought kits and RTR models at different prices and looked for the cited more current examples showing that different approaches are possible.
Arrowhead can price their kits as the see fit, no problem.
I like highly detailed cars and am willing to pay today’s prices for RTR, but not the same amount for kits where I have to do all the work, especially painting and decorating. I’m needing no car that much.
But that is my opinion. Others see it differently we have seen here. My purpose was to show that the same prices for kit and RTR are not inevitabe. As so often the discussion evolved.
It was meant as a statement not a judgement. When I still worked as a civil engineer I didn’t care much about prices of brass locomotive. Now, being retired a have to.
Regards, V
Exactly. I do not own a boat, 4 wheel drive truck or classic car, I don’t go fishing or hunting, I don’t play golf. I do travel, eat out, and buy trains. I drive a ten year old Chevy truck that has been paid for since it left the dealership.
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My Visa stopped working a couple of years ago while I was in Chattanooga trying to make a purchase at Chattanooga Depot before they retired and closed the shop. I called Visa and they said it was security lock due to “irregular activity”, and I nearly exploded. I said all I use this card for is steak dinners and electric trains. If the purchase is one of those two things there is nothing irregular about it!
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Even when we were living paycheck to paycheck, my freight car purchases were always Micro-Trains. I just made fewer purchases.
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This thread went way into the ditch.
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It is supposed to be about an exciting new manufacturer, Arrowhead Models, that is bringing a nicely detailed hopper car to the market.
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I am always excited about a new manufacturer even if they do not make something I will purchase. Health in the hobby market is good for all of us.
We can apply that general concept to just about any product, including wine and trains.
As for trains, I wouldn’t spend the extra mile on specific prototype details, reserving that effort for the modeler to fine tune the model for the wonkiness of a specific prototype. As a producer, I wouldn’t think there would be enough of a market that cared about it.
So in that respect, these releases surprise me.
But since people also seem to buy BMWs and fine wines, I guess market research puts the product on solid footing.
VOLKER LANDWEHR
I agree with riogrande5761 that the kit isn’t aimed at me. It is aimed at those who don’t care about the price and can afford it.
I wouldn’t characterized it quite that way, that the Arrowhead kit is aimed at people who “don’t care about the price”. Many probably do care about the price which is not at all insignificant, but it’s more a matter of it being worth it do them to invest in the cost of the AH kit to meet goals they have.
Think of it this way; it’s a matter of picking your poison and what has “value” to you and how you choose to allocate money. There are people who buy expensive stuff in all likihood who by someone elses standards, can’t “afford” it. In otherwords, some may live, quite literally, on the edge financially because they choose to buy expensive things rather than save money to have a cushion or funds for whatever should the need arise, and live hand to mouth. Others may be able to buy expensive things regularly and still have plenty of money in savings. As my wife often reminds me, just because you see people with flashy things isn’t indicitive of pure wealth. Have you ever seen the bumper sticker on cars: I owe, I owe, so off to work I go".
So my point is, some will loudly complain that this new Arrowhead hopper is too expensive for them and they state they are not buying any. I say, well, maybe. Or maybe that model isn’t your “poison” or central enough to your Model RR needs or goals for you to put out “the big bucks” to have it. Yet I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these people drop some major bucks on other things that are not necessary to life
As mentioned, I won’t be buying that hopper, but that doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t be interested in what Arrowhead might offer in the future.
I was initially disappointed in Exact Rails’ early offerings: beautifully done rolling stock, but all too modern for my layout. When they finally released some appropriate for my era, I was happy to support them, and bought several kits.
I think I would point out here the word “remember.” Just because it was that way in the past doesn’t mean the economics currently support markedly cheaper kits. But you bring up another point. Having a kit was often regarded as the way to build things cheaper and so it was, in a day when most people built kits to acquire their freightcar fleets. Now a kit represents something usually chosen for the pleasure it brings the builder or for the way it faciltates the painting process on a particular model.
You mentioned earlier that Walthers and another producer sold their kits for $10 less than RTR. Don’t know specofically which kits you’re speaking of, but all the Walthers kits vs RTR products I can remember falling into that category were originally produced as kits. The dies/molds were depreciated long ago, the parts are generally not like the latest finest kits, etc in line in general with my earlier comments.
That does point out that another reason I missed earlier behind the converging cost of kits, the fact that the cost of producing new items continues to rise and sales tend to come in smaller quantities, keeping the production cost per unit from easing. If they choose to take a little more profit on a small part of that production for a high demand, but low quantity item, would you rather have cheap kits today and no kits tomorrow or reasonably priced kit that keep the MFG’s nose above the water.
[quote user=“VOLKER LANDWEHR”]
I like highly detailed cars and am willing to pay today’s prices for RTR, but not the same amount for kits where I have to do all the work, especially painting and dec
Yes I remembered the price difference from some time ago. Being unsure about the price development I looked for current examples. I found kits on the current Intermountain and Walthers websites with differences of $10+ between kit and RTR. You can look at MB Kleins website too. So my examples are current and not history.
If this argument is valid I can’t tell. The Walthers kits are Timesaver kits with about one hour building time left. Perhaps the depreciated tooling costs allow for painting, printing and assembly and a $10+ gap to the RTR car. On the other hand there is Intermountain.
Correct but here is one point for consideration: The tooling costs have come down considerably with 3D drawings and machined molds and the labor cost is rising steeply. So I wouldn’t necessarily expect the gap to close.
Regards, Volker
Volker,
You may want to consider the amount of cars made vs. price.
It’s logical to expect that a product that takes less effort (a kit) and material (no paint) to create would be cheaper than one that takes more effort and material to create (RTR). But that is assuming that both products are made in the same numbers. A painted RTR car paint scheme could have a run of 500 or 1000 units. Undec. kits, being comparitively unpopular today, might be made in runs of 200 units or less. Each model has certain fixed costs that must be spread out over the entire production run. Spread them out over fewer units and you’ll get a higher cost per unit.
You also should consider that manufacturers like to make one kind of thing. Raw material goes in one end and finished product comes out the other, and every step along the way is the same. Asking for a small number of items to be treated quite differently (don’t paint, don’t assemble) can be annoying to a manufacturer to the point that they may raise the per unit price on them. Not all do, but some may. It depends on the contract signed by the manufacturer and the importer.
As I said before I was astonished about Arrowhead’s pricing. I would have let it go, as it is their decision. Only when Atlantic Central suggested that the same price for kit and RTR are natural and inevitable I got curious with the known results.
Since than people are trying without success to convince me that it is inevitable, though there are current different examples.
As we all, me included, are discussing without knowing all fact, let’s leave it at that.
I too am glad about any new manufacturer of high quality products. And the hopper looks great.
Regards, Volker