Atlas Code 83 #6 Turnouts...

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
1

Having problems with my Atlas # 6 code 83 turnouts. My 4 axle locos stall on the frogs when i have them crawling on speed step 1. They will go thru on step 3 usually … not that big of a deal but I thought that usually happened with small switchers. Anyway… to power the frog on these do i just wire a feeder to the brass strip below the frog and attach it to the postive track bus like the rest of the feeders? How many of you use these turnouts and are they reliable? I don’t want to have to tear up my scenery down the road to replace…

thanks,

Corey

2

Corey, I have a whole bunch of Atlas Custom-Line #6 Code 83 turnouts on my layout, and they are all problem-free.

Let me make two suggestions.

First, are the front and rear trucks of your locos both receiving power. Over the past few years, I have discovered that 4 or 5 of my diesels only have power to either the front or rear trucks but not both. Lift up the front wheels of a loco off the track and see if the rear wheels are still spinning. Then, reverse the procedure and lift the real wheels of a loco off the track and see if the front wheels are still spinning. At lower speeds, this power failure and resulting stalling are obvious. At higher speeds, the loco coasts through the turnout before the power loss causes a stall.

Second, if all the trucks are powered, add feeders to both ends of the turnout. That often fixes stalling problems.

You shouldn’t need to power the frogs on Atlas turnouts. I never have had to do that.

Is the stalling problem occurring on all of the turnouts? How many locos exhibit this problem?

Rich

3

Corey, here are a couple of tips for those turnouts. If they are the Custom Line, they have insulated frogs, meaning that they are electrically dead.

  1. Get a small soldering tool kit. Most of them come with a metal bristled brush. Scratch away any paint on the mating surfaces on the contact sides of the points and the stock rails. Or clean those surfaces with a cotton swab moistened with lacquer thinner. Don’t soak them, the thinner will attack the plastic parts of your turnout.

  2. Install feeder wires to the frog. Until I install my switch machines, I have mine wired with a SPDT switches. Just pay attention to rail polarity. They’re a LOT easier to wire BEFORE you install them (don’t ask me how I know this!! [banghead]).

As an aside, there was a segment in one of Cody’s Office videos, where he covered the area where the stock rails and the points meet with masking tape before painting them. This kept paint out of those areas to begin with. I do that with ALL of my new turnouts, and it’s virtually eliminated the problems you are having.

4

The 2 locos i have are an Atlas Trainman RS36 and a Walthers Proto 1K GP15. it does do it on most of them when theblocos are just crawling.

thanks

5

I am not sure that I follow your answer. Have you tested the front and rear trucks independtly to be certain that both front and rear trucks are powered?

Have you tested all three legs of the problem turnouts to confirm that each leg is powered?

That is where you need to start.

How many turnouts exhibit this stalling problem? Just one? Several?

Rich

6

It does sound as if the problems you’re having are due to 1) the locomotives in question are not picking up power from both sides of both trucks, 2) some other form of electrical discontinuity within some of your turnouts and/or 3) misalignment within some fo the turnouts.

I have 30 or so of the Atlas 83 #6 turnouts (and a few #8s), plus several of the “DCC Friendly” Shinohara/Walthers types that also have electrically dead frogs. I have yet to need to power frogs to avoid stalls, but have had a few locos that exhibited stalling due to poor or no pickup from at least one side of one truck, which also caused problems away from the turnouts by making the affected locos more sensitive to dirty track. Any such stalls happened only on the longer #8 frogs however, and not on the 6s at all.

In addition, Atlas turnouts sometimes lose electrical continuity to one or both closure rails (the rails between the frog and points) due to a failure of the mechanical connection at the heel of the points. This problem can be resolved by adding feeder wires to any dead closure rails.

Another thing to look at is whether the frog castings are flush with the adjacent rail heads. Many of the Atlas turnouts I’ve used have a frog that sits higher than the rails, which can be cured with a flat file. If the frog sits too high it can cause misalignment with the trucks as they pass and create stalls (this is usually a bigger problem with 3-axle trucks or steam locos though).

7

Rich, yes i have tested the locos as i installed decoders in these 2 locos and there are power feeders for both trucks. the testing came in to play as I first thought I needed to clean the wheels and was able to do so with the alcohol on paper towell on the track trick. Was able to clean all trucks doing that.

The locos stall at the frog when the switch is running straight through but not in the turnout position. I neglected to mention that i am in the process of wiring the layout and dropping feeders on most piieces of track. I have not yet hooked the feeders to the track bus yet. I just hooked up a set of feeders to the NCE panel and tested the locos running on the track and that is when i noticed it. happens on several turnouts. Could this be the reason and the problem will go away when the feeders are all properly attached to the track bus? 20 ga feeders btw and the bus will be 16 ga.

Thanks for the help!

Corey

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Yes - that could be a BIG part of the problem, maybe the entire thing. While you may see an electrical discontinuity within an Atlas turnout, it’s rare that the problem will remain after all the feeders are installed and every turnout is receiving power from every direction. I’ve only had a couple where additional feeders were needed for the closure rails, and those were previously used/recycled turnouts.

9

Corey, you imply that stalling is occuring on more than one turnout. Is this accurate? If so, I agree with Rich in that the locomotives themselves are having electrical pickup issues. I’ve never had problems with the Atlas code 83’s, so having more than one bad turnout seems unlikely.

It may be that, as someone else said, the height of the frog is causing one truck to lift off of the track just enough for the decoder to hiccup.

Is it more than just one locomotive that is stalling? I have had some pickup problems with my Proto Gp15’s. The trucks’ electrical pickup uses 4 tension wipers that contact the axles inside of the truck housing. Two different locomotives had the same problem. One of the eight wipers was not making enough contact to the axle, causing the locomotive to stall over Atlas crossings and turnouts. Also, since the contact between the wiper and the axle is contained within the truck housing, excessive grease (from the factory) could find its way onto the contact area.

The Atlas RS36 uses a more traditional electrical pickup design that’s pretty bulletproof. Only a loose wire, where its soldered to the metal strip, usually causes a truck pickup issue.

Again, is it multiple locomotives over multiple turnouts? Answering that question will help in figuring out the problem.

10

Corey, the lack of feeders could be part or all of the problem. Why not connect them up to the bus wires and see if the problem goes away.

You mentioned that the locos stall at the frog. How much of the loco is past the frog when this happens? Have the front trucks cleared the frog? Or, does the stall occur as soon as the wheels on the front truck reach the frog?

How many turnouts is that happening on? More than one? If it is happening on more than one turnout, are the locos stalling on the turnouts at the same position of the locos relative to the frog? In other words, is it always after the front truck clears the frog Is it always as soon as the wheels of the front truck reach the frog?

Tell us as much as you can so we can help you solve the problem.

Rich

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Rich, this happens with most of the turnouts if not all (can’t rember if it was absolutely all but i think so) as the lead truck touches the frog. I would be surprised if it is a loco/truck issue as otherwise they just crawl real nicely without stuttering etc.

I dont have the bus strung yet, was just trying to power through getting the feeders in as i hate soldering the feeders. should have all done in 2 more evenings. Appreciate the help!

Corey

12

We have yet to resolve an issue that occasionally turns up. Is the engine stalling (no power) or is it shorting (jumping a gap?) Place a second engine on the track nearby, stopped but with its headlights on. Run one of the engines that stalls slowly over the turnout, and watch the headlights. If they stay on, you’re stalling. If they go off, even momentarily, then you’re shorting.

Atlas turnouts are not prone to shorting, but there could be a defect. Look for loose bits of wire. This more commonly happens with Peco turnouts, where opposite-polarity rails are close enough to be bridged by a metal wheel. A bit of clear nail polish to make the gap wider will cure this.

I have a few turnouts, both Walthers/Shinohara and Atlas, that cause some of my shorter engines to stall. I use Tortoise switch machines on most of these, so I’ve been wiring the frogs through the Tortoises. You need to do something like this, because the frog polarity must change with the position of the turnout. The Tortoise does this nicely.

13

Corey, the fact that you mention that it happens when the turnout is set for straight, but not when set for the divergent leads me to believe that it involves the points. Check to make sure that you:

Have power on the point rail for the straight route. Check at both the contact point and the stock rail, and between the point and the pivot point. If there isn’t power on the point rail, your power interruption isn’t just the length of the frog, but from the end of the point rail through the frog. Have you cleaned the track after ballasting? A fine layer of dried diluted glue can cause this, as well.

One way to test for power on the points is to let the locomotive stall, then touch the stock rail and point rail at the same time with a screwdriver. If the locomotive starts again, it’s the continuity between the stock and point rails. Clean the pivot points and the point where the stock rail and point rails touch.

14

OK, let’s summarize where we are at with this issue.

You have a problem with your 4-axle locos stalling on all of your Atlas #6 Code 83 turnouts.

We are not sure if you have more than two locos, but the two locos that are stalling are an Atlas Trainman RS36 and a Walthers Proto 1K GP15. Power is getting through both the front and rear trucks.

The locos stall at the frog when the turnout is set to run straight through, but the locos do not stall when the turnout is set to run through the divergent route.

The turnouts are not wired on the ends of all three legs with feeder wires.

The problem occurs as the lead truck touches the frog.

The locos stall if they are running on speed step 1, but they do not stall if running at speed step 3 or higher.

So, these are the symptoms that you report.

Mister Beasley raises the issue of stalls versus shorts, and you should confirm that the problem you are experiencing is, indeed, a stall and not a short. My guess is that it is a stall because shorts at the frog on Atlas turnouts are not common unless there is a fault with the wheel flanges on the locos. Also since you locos pass the frog without incident at speed step 3 or higher, it sounds like they are coasting through at those higher speeds, perhaps with a momentary loss of power, but not a short. But do Mister Beasley’s test to confirm this.

Let me ask you a series of questions, and then it would be helpful to all of us trying to help you to get specific answers to each question.

First, since the problem is limited to the straight through route, from which direction does the stall occur? From the short end of the turnout or from the long end of the turnout or both?

Second, does the stall occur only when the loco is running forward through the frog, or does the stall also occur when the loco is running in reverse through the frog? Does the problem occur

15

Guys i appreciate the help here. Sorry for not getting back to you. We had a back up in the basement last night that i will be working on for the next two nights throwing our wet crap and cleaning up. Didn’t affect the railroad area… a clogged sewer was the culprit. Anyway… will get back to this in a couple days or possibly this weekend.

I doubt that the turnouts are all faulty… and yes i own only the 2 engines at this time. the stall is momentarily and cuts out and kicks back in and does not even cause the soundtrax decoder to do the restart… I expect that the issue is the one set of feeders only but will confirm as soon as I run the bus and hook things up properly. Definitely it occurs at the short end of the turnout and and running forward but can’t remember now if it did it running in reverse and in the long end. Track was cleaned immediately upon seeing the problem and cleaning the wheels on the loco.

One additional thing that just came to me…and I neglected to say. This same stalling occurs at an Atlas 30* crossing as the lead truck enters the frog. Totally forgot that as that was the last area i was running in.

Thanks again all.

Corey

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Sorry to hear about the mess, as if you didn’t have anything else to deal with. Well on the brighter side, this gives an idea for an industry on the layout. Have a treatment facility to process the “sludge” into ferilizer pellets. This is exactly what MWRA (Mass Water Resources) does @ the old Quincy,MA Fore River Shipyard. Also in conjunction w/ Clean Harbors next door. Twin River Technologies (ex Proctor and Gamble) runs the old Fore River RR for the entire facility. Nice to see a Small branchline RR still running.

17

Still sounds like a locomotive truck/wheel pickup problem to me. Have you checked all of the wheels to see if they are in gauge and not somehow not making contact as they lift slightly? It sounds like they stall when they pass over the notorius Atlas humps at the frogs and crossings.

Uh…Is it even an electrical problem? Does speed step 1 creep so slowly that the locomotives just don’t have enough oomph to get over the slight hump, but at setting 3 they do?

18

I wanted to thank everyone for their syggestions and help they gave me. We finally got the water mess cleaned up and i was able to get back to this, 2 issues going on here, we definitelly had a feeder issue, as once i connected the feeders properly the problem went away on one loco. As it turrns oyt, the Atlas was akso out of gauge and did not the NMRA guage. issue corrected now on both!

thanks again,

Corey

19

Corey, that is excellent news. So all of the locos run good through all of the turnouts now. Thanks for getting back to us.

Rich

20

Yes no issues now Rich and thank you for your help. I have a feeder for nearly every piece of track and no electrical issues at all. The Atlas now crawls through the turnouts as well.

Just wanted to let everyone know before i forgot.

Corey