Attracting newcomers
People today are “visual”. If the general public sees how far O gauge has come forward over the years that should attract new blood into the hobby.
I believe that displays in public places such as malls, librarys, etc… would expose the hobby to new people. With all the varity available and the reasonable pricing on entry level sets visibility of the product is the best bet for O gauge’s future.
Well it’s certainly been a topic of debate over the years why train sets aren’t in bigger chain discount stores. There certainly must be some reason, whether on the fault of the train makers, their distributors and dealers or the retailers themselves. Certainly with places like Wal-Mart, Target, K-Mart, etc. being the places people shop at the holidays - if folks don’t see trains in places like those, then they assume the trains aren’t being made. I’m sure the dealer networks don’t want more competition by having train sets for sale in department stores. But they already have competition with the big mail order train places.
There’s also a perception from those who realize Lionel is still in business, that anything with that name on the box is expensive and collectible. The VFW here in Corning is having a raffle for a Lionel Pennsy Flyer Set. The guy said to me “Yeah, this set is worth over $400!” I assured the guy I know my Lionel trains and the list price is $179.99. I had to tell him that a couple times before conveniently pulling out the current catalog which I had with me, and showing him the list price.
The word needs to get out that these are still toys. But I don’t know how you get folks to believe that when 90% of all train catalogs are NOT toys, but scale detailed and sized models, and priced accordingly. Go ahead, here’s a test for you all. Take the Lionel, K-Line or MTH catalog and show it to a parent with young kids and see what that parent’s reaction is. I’ve done this, and the results are less than pleasing. “Gee this stuff is expensive.” “Most of this stuff are toys for adults, not kids.” “We can take a vacation for the price of one train engine.” Parents with kids are far more concerned with price, quality, play value and durability than prototypical detail, accurate sound systems and computer control. Yet the the train importers are in a do-or-die struggle to be number one and out do each other by attempting to satisfy an increasingly demanding adult audience that insists on more d
WOW! I seriously think that you should become Lionel’s new president! With your ideas you could probably be successful starting up a whole new company of your own in the O gauge market!
As far as having department stores being competition to hobby stores if they sold trains, I actually think that they could boost hobby stores business. Newcomers to the hobby would get involved because they saw a set at Wal-Mart and bought it and then when they decided to expand and build a layout, they would go to a hobby store to get everything they need. If it wasn’t for that set in Wal-Mart, the hobby store wouldn’t have had their business.
Having ads for trains on TV would be a HUGE help. Just think of how many toys are promoted to kids on TV. Kids see something on TV and they want it and will do anything to get it because it looked so cool on TV. I actually do remember once seeing a commercial for Lionel starter sets on TV once a very long time ago. t wasn’t during children’s programming, though. Recently a Lionel layout with a NYC Flyer set and a Port of Lionel City Dive Team set with accessories was a prize on the Price is Right. It actually was featured twice. The first time it was in a showcase and nobody won it. In the credits at the end of the show when it listed the companies that provided the prizes, Lionel was in there. That was a good publicity idea for Lionel, but there’s so much more they ought to do.
I imagine that your accessory ideas would be great. I’d try getting patents for them and offerign them to the manufacturers. You could be like Richard G. Smith that created all those Lionel and American Flyer accessories on his own and sold the ideas to them(remember that CTT article about the AF barrel loader prototype?). While we’re on the subject of accessory ideas, something I’ve thought of is combining Lionel’s operating milk car and operating ice depot into one accessory. Have a refrigerator car that gets ice put into it and unloads milk cans (or fruit cr
Those are both excellent responses, and I can only add one twist to all that.
Real railroads are no longer glamorous! Kids don’t say they want to be engineers anymore. The average person has no connection to a train, except that they may have had to wait for one at a grade crossing once. Railroads used to be this country’s lifeblood, passing through every small town. Now everywhere you look, right of ways are being abandoned, and turned into trails. It seems to be an uphill battle, and the grade gets steeper every day!
How do we reach the next generation when all they want to do is play video games?
If we can’t make it interesting, we are dinosaurs, and don’t look for help from the real railroads.
How true you are! The real railroads still are the lifeblood of the country and we’d be lost without them. However, most people don’t know or realise that. The majority of products you buy were probably once shipped by rail. Amtrak should do more to promote passenger trains as an alternative to air travel. There’s been several topics on the Trains Magazine forums about what needs to be done to help passenger rail. North America is behind other parts of the world when it comes to passenger trains. Did you know that in France and Germany the governments have plans for high-speed rail to completely eliminate domestic air travel within the next few years? We need to get Amtrak (and the railroad industry in general) back into the public eye.
Been to a train show lately. Look around. It’s easy to notice the gray hair and the beer bellies. There is no youth to be found. People that go to train shows are just reliving their childhood and having fun. Just a guess, but the average age of a train collector has to be 50+.
Electric Trains are no longer the high tech toy of the century. The youth of today wants to play with their computer or video games and not build anything like a model railroad. One visit to Toy’s r Us will show you that things have changed sharply- no trains, plastic models, chemistry sets, erector sets or anything that requires assembly.
In general, modeling as a whole is a dead hobby for the new generation.
As more cities expand futher into surburbia, we should see a slow reassurgence of the railroad industry primarily in the commuter area. However, I do not believe that even this will spark an interest in model railroading ever again.
Give Lionel 20 more years max and they will disappear, because their customers will be passing on. The best thing that we as collections, hobbiests and modelers can do is build large portable layouts that hopefully will pass on to the next generation and be displayed, so that the hobby and an era is not forgotten. Model railroading like car collecting will always be with us, but unfortunately I see it as a very small community of people in times ahead.
Good comments here… there is a difference though between “negativity” and being realistic. Now Big Boy, I don’t know know if “glamorous” is the right word. Railroading at one time was dirty and dangerous work. Camelback steamers were called “widow-makers” with good reason. Certainly railroads today are more streamlined in purpose, function and equipment. Not as many roads, not as much variety, and not as much a part of people’s daily lives. In nearby Sayre, Pa., the whole town once revolved around the Lehigh Valley railroad. Railroads were big employers. In any given town, folks must have known a few people that worked for the railroad, or directly benefited economically from railroad jobs.
As I said above, I don’t think those glory days of toy trains (or real trains) will ever be repeated. BUT, kids still like trains. My neighbor brought his 8-month old son over to see my layout… the boy was in wide-eyed amazement! Another neighbor kid was over and he couldn’t stop talking about it. He ran to get his dad, talking so fast, all about these trains he had never seen before!
Dlagrua is right on unfortunately when he metioned train shows. I like the smaller shows though, and those are the ones where you tend to see families and kids. I used to have a traveling door layout I took to shows. At one show, I was right next to this very large modular Lionel layout featuring all the latest SCALE items with all the latest digital sound and operating electronics. And there I am with my 027 trains on my door layout. But people were telling me all weekend they liked my layout more - especially the folks with kids. I think this is because they saw my layout as “a possibility” for them. No way were they going to be able to afford to build that other layout. My layout didn’t scare them off… instead it planted a seed. Dads and especially moms asked a lot of questions. I think because moms tend to manage the family finances, they were impressed with what I did: the cost, the creativity, the play value, the imaginat
Perhaps my post was a bit negative but I’m trying to be realistic about the hobby. The local train/hobby shop in my town seems busy at times but the owners of the store and the customer base appear near retirement age. I’ve never seen a child or adolescent in the store looking at the merchandise.
I do agree that small children do tend to like trains though. Perhaps it is because they are yet computer savy and at an age when looks of a toy means more play value than something which requires thought. I believe that there may be a small chance that we can bring youth into this hobby but it will require giving a train set to a young child and playing with the set with him/her. However in my heart I still believe that toy trains will one day soon go the way of the dinosaur. That is why I intend to build a large working portable (break apart) layout before my time is up. Perhaps by leaving a finished working layout for my sons (and future grandchildren), one of them will pick up and carry the torch into the mid 2000’s. It would be really sad if my lifelong collection disappears after all that I’ve put into it .Perhaps the next genration of LaGruas at middle age ( my age group) will start collecting again. Maybe it’s just a hobby for old folks who want to remember the " good old days" but they certainly were. I have fond memories of the Lionel Showroom on 26th street, Madison Hardware, Julies toys on 23 rd street, The Macy’s layout and the Gilbert Hall of Fame that were all within a few blocks of each other. The kids of today have no idea what fun they’ve missed.
well, lots of good idea in those post so not much to ad except one point the fact that model railroading offer very good value. If you buy a set /locomotive/rolling stock today it will still be enjoyable 10 years and more down the road and will be still compatible with item selling then. Probably not looking as great as the latest model and not have all the new feature, but how far can we go to recreate the perfect boxcar. Not like today PC game, video game or most other toys. And don’t forget once you turn the power off the train still here, Pc game and video game disapear.
Interesting topic. I, and my kids are the people you are talking about. I never owned a train set as a kid. I have a 6 year old girl and 3 boys (5,3 2). When my 5 year old boy was 3 years old, a freind (maried to a british lady) introduced me to Thomas the Tank Engine video nrated by Ringo Star. I then found about Thomas, Percy, Gordon etc. and bought my kid the wooden trains and tracks. He liked them so much and preferred to any other high teck toy. His younger brothers got into the Thomas train set craze too and now we have more than 100 wooden trains and all kinds of accesoriies and the kids build an entire city with bridges, tunnels, airports, fire stations etc. on the carpet in the basement. I got them some Lionel battery powered trains that also run on Thomas train tracks (and some Brio trains) and they loved them. I showed them a Lionel catalogue and an MTH one I got from a local train shop (and yes, all I saw was grey haired men with beer bellies in the shop) and my kids now want the trains without the faces that make sound and smoke.
What I am saying is that the Thomas the Tank Engine and Brio generation might progress to the Lionel etc. train systems and save the hobby. The obstacle is my wife and the labeling of these trains for kids 8 and older. Wife argues that trains are expensive without much educational value. She said they have enough Thomas trains. Buy something else like Legos for modeling and creativity etc. The kids have a computer and all sort of PC games but stick with Thomas Trains computer games.
So how could I convince my wife about the value of a Lionel set for the kids development and where to go from here. I am sure a lot of potential hobbiest are in my shoes especially around Christmas time.
Dear fmuakkassa, I had my first Lionel set before I was even ONE WEEK old. The interest stayed. While friends got into drugs and drinking, my interest in trains (and the real ones too) continued all through high school. Aside from the expense, this is a WONDERFUL FAMILY HOBBY where kids can have the chance to not only play, but learn about planning, building, wiring and maintenance. I’ve known single mother’s who bought trains for their son’s… they might not have know as much about the trains - but they really got into painting the little people and making scenery and buildings together.
I have been building a train set with a nephew. It pleases me to no end to have watched his interest increase. I planned his first track plan, then he came up with new ideas for it. He helped build the layout, and the pride he takes in telling his friends “I did this” is worth every cent I’ve invested. I worry sometimes when I find something real cheap - I found a Lionel steam engine at the Salvation Army for 95¢!!! HE LOVED THAT! He knows a deal by now. Sure it’s a bottom line 8700 Rock Island engine but it’s red (his favorite color) and it’s his favorite engine. I did some work on it - added a headlight and a lot of weight, improved the traction and now it pulls 12-15 cars no sweat!! We design our own operating accessories, like an manually operating convery belt which we cobbed from a kid’s toy. We took another kid’s toy crane, fixed it up, strung it up through the layout and now it operates manually from the front of the layout. I took a used MPC Alco FA and repainted it to Conrail for him since he likes Conrail. But the important thing is I listen to him - he comes up with ideas, and I try to translate them to reality. And I look for ways that he can participate in the process. He bugs me now to use the power drill and the handsaw. One time he got a small shock from the power drill just after I got one (an old one drill which has since been replaced). I smiled, shook his hand and said "congratulations my boy - you’r
Yes! I think our hobby needs nore exposure. Along with the manufacturers of ALL scales and the local hobby shop we need to open our layouts to the public. Don’t get frightened!!!
What I’m talking about is inviting a co-worker with kids to see your layout, a neighbors kids or a family member. How many of us never do this. Well, ya to our buddies but I’m 51 and yes I’ve interested one who was never in the hobby but I try to invite kids with there parents, even teenagers that I know are safe(pardon the expresion) to drop by watch and even get their hands dirty. Shockingly my own kids friends who are in their late teens and early twenties are getting interested. (Scared the crap outta me). One is now making plans to get into HO (oh God). His family had a large layout years ago and dumped it. But now he wants into the hobby. Another two work on my layout every few weeks. I even got a call from a parent saying thanks (Scared again). Basically what I’m saying is the almost old geezers like myself are a lot of fun and certainly enjoyable but watch the faces of the younger folk (eek, i sound old) and watch for the joy, you might just be helping make the future enjoyable for yourself in the next 30 or so years.
great stuff, but i have to make a comment on the collectors vs. the operators. A few years ago will visiting relatives out of town we stop by a co-worker of my brother-in-laws for a christmas open house. I noticed the nice O-gauge train around the christmas tree a started up a conversation about Lionel trains. He informed me that the train around the tree was a Williams model and that he would never think of running one of his Lionels on the floor and with all these people around. After talking with him for awhile i realized this guy has some stuff and i wanted to see it. More or less i begged him to let me see his lionel collection. Reluctantly he gives in and takes me down to his basement den. Expecting to see a over the top layout, i see nothing. “wheres your layout i ask?” Turns out he is only a collector. Says it will be his retirement savings. I’d guess about $50,000+ all neatly packed away, all in the boxes all stored in big plastic bins in a built-in cabinat. (all late 1980’s -now )He wouldn’t even open any of the boxes for me to take a look (i guess the elements may damage the paint) The only track he had was the small oval around the tree.
Not quit sure what my point is, but i think there are too many people who think they are more a collectable then a toy train or model train, and thus not interested. This guys attidude was the more people who ran, played and operated the better for him. Someday he was going to cash-in. And he could be right. But he had no interest in railroading at all. He thought i was the crazy guy and couldn’t believe at times i would actually highball my trains around my modest (very modest) layout.
I told his as far as his retirement, Mutual funds, CDs and the stock market. PLAY WITH YOUR TRAINS. they are way too cool. share the joy!
ai
aiireland, that fellow is going to be real disappointed, and I agree with your attitude. The stuff he’s collecting isn’t not going to appreciate in value that much. The reason the postwar trains have been collectible is because kids had them, played with them, dreamed about having more, and now those kids (adults) have a frame of reference and are buying back their memories. But even many postwar prices are down on things that are not in pristine condition. When I got back into the hobby, MPC boxcars were going for on average $25-$50. The 9223 Reading Box Car had a book value of $45. I wasn’t paying that nor did I. I got one for $12 mint in the box at a sale where the guy needed surgery, his insurance wouldn’t cover it, and he was desperate for fast cash. So he had to sell many of his “retirement” trains.
The collectors and the collector mentality certainly did help this hobby through some lean times. But it has also hurt this hobby. Especially when folks are afraid to let kids play with the trains for fear of ruining their value! It’s a darn good thing that our dad’s didn’t feel that way years ago. Hard to believe but there was a time when a young boy could play with a Lionel F-3 engine with loads of operating cars… I know… that kid was me. And many others like me.
I dare say most collectors would have a fit to see a young boy playing with those kinds of trains today! Yet they FAIL to realize the REASON these trains are collectible now is because kids WERE allowed to play with them.
Whenever I see the words “collectible” printed on the box of something I laugh. Manufacturers don’t determine what is collectible… the market does. And if the market has no frame of reference (ie: how many kids have train sets today?) then the product isn’t collectible because no one has any appreciation or a bond with that product.
And this is what the future holds for this hobby unfortunately.
brianel
Well, I myself am a full-blown collector. I’m one of those guys who’s out looking for rare variations and trying to find the best pieces and everything. However, I can’t stand to see these trains just packed away and sitting. I run all of my trains, including my rare and valuable collectors’ items. Now, I’m very careful with them and don’t have big crashes or anything like that, but I do run them. They’ve lasted for decades having been run. Running them more isn’t going to hurt their condition. I have a layout with many trains and operating accessories on it and I get great pleasure out of using it. It’s just everything layed out on green carpeting, but that’s the way I like it. It reminds me of the kind of layout that somebody might have had 50 or so years ago and that’s what I like about it. Now, my collection is too large to all fit on the layout, so I have shelves on all the walls around it. I can’t stand to have my trains packed away in boxes where no one can see them. What’s the point then? I could have some Rubbermaid containers with bricks in them and say they’re filled with Blue Comets and no one would know the difference. If you’re collecting toy trains just for the money-don’t. I have no intention of selling any of the pieces in my collection unless I come across another identical piece in better condition. The point of collecting trains should be a love for these beautiful old toy trains. One of the things that brings me the most joy is showing people my layout and collection. I take a great deal of pride in it and really love to see others take an interest it-especially kids. Oh, by the way, I’m not a middle-aged guy with grey hair and a beer belley. I’m 17 years old, so there are young people out there who love toy trains too and have an appreciation for all those great trains that were made years ago. Also, for anyone who’s interested, there are some pictures of pieces from my collection and layout on www.geocities.com/tintracks .
As a Conductor with New Jersey Transit, I get an opportunity to talk with ALOT of people. Almost invariably, when a family with young children boards and I’m punching tickets, the talk turns to toy trains. “He’s ALWAYS liked trains”, the mom will say about her 6 year old. THAT’s my ‘in’. It’s really easy to talk about trains then; ask if they went to the hobby store recently, if they KNOW where a hobby store is, what kind of trains they like, and just generally talk up the hobby. In a Conductor’s uniform, talking about toy trains, I know that I can make a great impression, not only on the children, but the parents as well. I can speak of my experiences with real trains and the ones in my basement. I can let them know where the nearest hobby store is to them. I can let them know about local train shows and exhibits. I can talk about new, old, big, small ~ whatever will get that gleam in the eye!
After that, it’s up to the manufacturers to KEEP them in the hobby. Therein lies MY question ~ What are the manufacturers doing to KEEP those newcomers? Offering 700 dollar engines? That’ll attract some, maybe, but probably turn off alot more. My 10 year old knows a wheel arrangement on a steam loco, but he doesn’t know whether it has a feedwater heater to be prototypically correct. All he knows is that it’s black and it runs and he can blow the whistle and watch it come out of the tunnel. He knows he can make a new layout with switches and operate a barrel loader or a milk car. He knows a frieght train doesn’t always need a caboose but it sure is fun when a lighted one is on the back as it goes through that tunnel again! Do those trains and accessories need to be more detailed to keep his interest? No. They have to WORK RELIABLY. They have to be within the average budget for TOYS.
Kids will stay with the hobby if adults allow the hobby to grow within the family. Parents who think nothing of driving their precious cargo to soccer games or volunteer to be coaches or Scout leaders should spend as much time with t
SASK TINPLATER, I really like your attitude. There is a difference - a BIG difference - between a collector like yourself and the collector who stashes stuff away thinking those orange boxes each have a VanGogh in them. For a 17 year old you have a real positive outlook on the hobby and the fun you can have. Collectors like you are A-OK in my book.
TRAINBUD, thank you. Well said. You summed up the whole reason why so many of us still buy trains after all these years. There are others like you and I who do everything we can to promote the hobby. The MANUFACTURERS have to step up to the station platform and do their part. Really, it shouldn’t be up to us at all… it’s up to them.
The other thing I find interesting is that right now “Public Train Diplays” is the lead suggestion. I wonder, who will do these displays? And what kind of diplays will they be? I know I did it for 8 years. With a small layout that ANY parent could look at and believe they could do the same thing with their kids. But after a while I got tired of doing all the work for free while helping some dealer down the aisle sell trains because he doesn’t bother to have a display. I know, because dealers actually thanked me many times for helping them to sell train sets. The year I didn’t show up with my layout some TCA collector guy said to me “This is a shame, what are the kids going to see? There’s nothing here for them!” Exactly. I mean, doing it did bring me a lot of joy and I learned an lot from listening to parents and kids. Which is why I am so VOCAL about this topic because I don’t believe that K-Line, Lionel or MTH listen to the people I talked with… they listen to full blown collectors who are TCA members at YORK. Why is why 90% of today’s product is expensive (unreliable) rolling computers on wheels and scale sized rolling stock that NO kid is EVER going to get as a gift… unless his dad is a rock star.
brianel
Amazing how people think alike.This has been an idea that alot of toy train collectors have pondered for several years.But are the manufacturers listening ?I sent e-mails to the “O” gauge manufacturers some time ago addressing this same issue.With the “cheap” labor from the oversea’s factories from “communist” countries such as China,why can’t Lionel,MTH,and the others put out cheap,but not junk low-end starter sets.Heck Marx years ago put out goobs of dime store trains that had to be made pretty darn good,cause their still everywhere,so why can’t the crazy money hungry outfits do the same ? WHEW…got that off my shoulders.Hey I got two young boys that put down the Playstation2 to help set up a small layout cause they thought the “ole” trains from my youth were just the coolest thing since command control .These toy train companies just can’t figure out how to go out of business.I can…,the way their doing business.All these replies should be sent to all the manufacturers to give them a idea on how to run a business .And it comes from those how know.The people who have supported their stupid butts !Folks who will be able to buy their trains when we are all gone.Or will the be gone before us ?Just my thoghts.
The little kids (several different families) who drop by my house want to PLAY WITH THE TRAINS. They want to run the 027, build the Playskool track all over the floor, are dying to touch the HO (not yet, they can’t!). They beg their folks to come back to see the trains. We need stuff kids can have fun with. The Lego layouts are “covered” with kids at train shows. DCC can be a way for the tech savvy generation to get in and have fun. I agree that there is little connection between trains and real life for too many people, but there still seems to be something about them with universal appeal.