And if it was only that simple…
I do have two cats, and they do not like being indoors, let alone up in the train room, so no problem there. All of my trains are subway trains, all permanently coupled with draw bars. There are no computers and no detection systems in my automation. Track power is on (10.5v at 15A) and track resistors control the speed of trains in and out of the stations. Departure times are regulated by a master timer that pulls in a track relay. Dead simple stuff really. There are emergency buttons all around the layout so that no matter where I am in the room, I can stop all action at once. Pressing the button stops the trains, stops the timer, and stops the Standard Clock. The whole thing just pauses until I fix the issue and return to the tower to reset the master power relay. Since I rue more that 500 trains a day against a real time Standard Clock it takes about a month to complete a full day’s operations. The pause button is great, I just leave everything where it was and come back another time. In the tower there is a train register that the towerman must keep of the railroad’s activity.
“And if it was only that simple…”
It never is as simple as a LION makes it out to be. But complications are just little bumps on the path to be overcome.
If it does not move, it is dead and you can eat it.
If it does move, then you can catch it and then eat it.
SIMPLE!
ROAR
Well the Georgia Railroader doesn’t care what kind of computers are present I trust my brothers way more than some software programmed to run a train. Oh yea, it’s also against federal law to watch tv and be on the internet while working, I dont know where you got that idea from. You think that is safer? The Georgia Railroader thinks NOT!
[quote user=“BroadwayLion”]
Semper Vaporo:
And an automated HO layout also does not have the problem of unanticipated obstructions… unless the household has a CAT and then I bet the automation all goes to pot in a big hurry. El Gato knocks the engine off and the train cars are not detected as being in the block so the following train does a rear-ender and that engine also derails, thus the next train repeats the scenario. Granted, there will be little curdled human blood, except the plastic carnage that can be significant, such that there might be some curdled blood in the owner (and/or his significant other when the prices of the damaged cars and locos are revealed). Bar-be-qued cat, anyone?
I do have two cats, and they do not like being indoors, let alone up in the train room, so no problem there. All of my trains are subway trains, all permanently coupled with draw bars. There are no computers and no detection systems in my automation. Track power is on (10.5v at 15A) and track resistors control the speed of trains in and out of the stations. Departure times are regulated by a master timer that pulls in a track relay. Dead simple stuff really. There are emergency buttons all around the layout so that no matter where I am in the room, I can stop all action at once. Pressing the button stops the trains, stops the timer, and stops the Standard Clock. The whole thing just pauses until I fix the issue and return to the tower to reset the master power relay. Since I rue more that 500 trains a day against a real time Standard Clock it takes about a month to complete a full day’s operations. The pause button is great, I just leave everything where it was and come back another time. In the tower there is a train register tha
BART has Train Operators on board in the cab. BART uses an automated operation that originally did not need human input. This was changed due to the realization of unexpected human problems.
The first was a change in the operation of the doors. Originally no input was needed by the train operator for the doors to close. This was changed to having the operator having to push a button for the doors to close.
The next was to have a safety that when a tone sounded in the cab the operator had to push a button or the train would stop.
Both of these changes happened after the unthinkable happened. A Train Operator Fell Out of the cab at a station and the train departed without a human in the cab !!! The first time it happened BART management described this as a fluke. The second time it happened state regulators insisted on changes.
Thx IGN
Good judgment comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgment.
Learn from the mistakes of others. You won’t live long enough to make them all yourself.
Murphy’s law at it’s best.
Just remember the movie West World with it’s robots were nothing could go wrong go wrong go wrong go wrong go wrong go wrong go wrong go wrong go wrong go wrong go wrong go wrong go wrong go wrong go wrong go wrong
[(-D]
Thx IGN
Every job has smart people looking for ways to eliminate it.
I was always told that was the definition of a good employee! You should always be seeking ways to make your job easier and simpler, with the ultimate end to be the elimination of the job altogether. The trick is to stretch it out to retirement age without bankrupting the company.
Every system is vunerable to hacking, malware and virus attacks. It seems that every week some ‘secure’ computer system has been compromised in some way.
I was thinking the same.
All the objections I was gonna raise were already stated…so I’ll add one more: jobs. At the risk of going political…one of the hot buttons in the country right now is the loss of “good paying jobs”. It’s my belief that the US has automated itself out of many of those jobs on the altar of the almighty buck. This would merely be the latest (if/when it happens) of that.
What happens when a unit shuts down on the main? Gotta ring the Diesel Doc and check all kind of things behind closed doors. Yeah a computer can do that and follow logic to troubleshoot things…but then you gotta automate and put sensors on every single engine block, fuse panel, traction motor, etc. Those break too…I see nothing but cascading expenses and in the end…a greasy pair of hands, sharp eye and experienced mind still gotta put boots on steel to fix it and get it running. I’d rather keep the crews in the cab & pay a couple bucks more for stuff.
After having read this thread in its entirety I have come to one conclusion.
Broadway Lion needs to watch the movie “Fail Safe:”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-6xcIUwPtohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9R3w8wDrmM&feature=related
I think there has been a move toward full automation that began at least 100 years ago. But the challenge of controlling automatic operation was insurmountable. That challenge took a big leap toward feasibility when diesels replaced steam. At about that point, we have seen small examples of automated running in specialized applications. The next big leap toward feasibility is underway now with computers and microprocessors sprouting up on locomotives. I believe that the greatest accelerator of all toward automation will be PTC.
Right now, PTC appears to be a collision avoidance system. But collision avoidance is the very control that is needed for heart and brains of automatic operation. I do not know of any advancement in railroading that has matched the size and scope of the PTC mandate. I do not expect that its execution will simply amount to installing the system and walking away finished. PTC will begin a process that
No, PTC will not be unstoppable…
That is exactly what it is supposed to do! That is to STOP a train.
NYCT has had positive train control for over 100 years. Rather primitive, an arm reaches up when the signal is RED, If a train passes a tripper puts the train BIE.
OIf course that was 100 years ago now brakes a re composite rather than iron, and so the stopping distances are greater, and so the signals can no longer stop a train soon enough. THEY blame it on the signal system, but the problem is the brakes. Installing track brakes for emergency use would be the easiest way to bring the system back into compliance, but NYCT does not listen to me.
ROAR
I am saying that the technological whirlwind created by the execution of PTC will be unstoppable. And it will lead into areas as yet unimagined. At one end of PTC is collision avoidance. At the other end is automated running (if I may be so ingrained in my thinking).
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/operations/the-science-of-train-handling.html
This article just appeared in Railway Age. Part of it talks about the LEADER system on the NS. The UP, and maybe a few others are also trying it. It’s not PTC, but in the present incarnation the assist mode “tells” the engineer what throttle or dynamic brake position to use, when to set air and how much. When PTC is deployed, it will be integrated with it.
The next generation of LEADER sounds like it will be able to control the train itself directly. Not having to involve the engineer unless something goes wrong. (Right now it’s a “clear block” type system. It doesn’t know what signals the train is operating on, or even what track it’s on. Future developments will address that.)
Jeff
Automated freight trains were operated by Columbia Geneva Steel in Wyoming in the late 50’s. I was Program Mgr for WABCO in this Joint WABCO-US&S venture. It was a tough task. The line included 12 miles of undulating 12% grades and the trains were a hundred cars long hauled by 5 old. F7 Units. The trailing load was 10,000 tons of peletized ore. There was no such thing as vital solid state devices so the whole system was done with relays. The cabinet replaced the ballast block on the A-units and it was just about as big if not as heavy. The mine elevation was 7000 ft and the winter weather defied description.The biggest problem was the slow response of the train to changes in speed. It gave new meaning to feedback. The program was scheduled to be completed in 6 months. It took 3 years. Columbia Geneva’s goal was to show the union that the trains could be run with a crew of two, rather than four. The two would monitor the operation and take over if the automation shut down. We found that they watched what our program was doing and copied it. In the final winter of automated operation the snow was so bad that rotary plows from the UP wre called on to clear the cuts. They did this very well but tore out all of the imbedded automation devices, The crews were educated by that time so that ended the demonstration.
Using the things learned in this program. automated freight operation was successfully implemented in Canada from Great Slave Lake to the rail head. In this case, automation provided a significant improvement in fuel consumption.
Electronic Brakes and silid state technology should make it much easier today.
Jerry Pier:
A lot of what I remember about San Francisco’s BART is that a lot of the automation was relay driven. Did what you described about Columbia Geneva work the same way?
Kind of curious. BART’s signal communication between rail and wheel was an early problem from what I heard about it.
Thx IGN
BART does NOT operate without a live person on the train. While the trains normally operate automatically, there is a live person in the cab who can stop the train or take over operations when necessary. Washington DC also had similar automatic operations. But, after a bad accident a few years ago due to failure of automatic control components, they are now requiring their operators to manually operate their trains, subject to a signal system that enforces s