fixed the gears. Well, still needs one new gear in the main center truck but that can wait since one main axle is driving as are all the other four.
Now for the weird electrical faults.
Locomotive powers up and responds to DCC power and sound features.
Once it moves it intermittently stops for no apparent reason.
The symptom is a static crackle over the speaker then silence and no movement.
Running at full speed (step 128) and the crackle is still there but the locomotive mostly powers through. Slow speeds not so much.
Pressing down on any of the trucks with a finger on the appropriate part of the locomotive restores power. Pressing gently on the right side of any of the trucks restores power, even pressing on the driveshafts seems to be enough.
It seems to be a pickup problem from wheel to truck pick up. All is clean and lubricated. The truck electrical contacts are all clean and de-oxidized. Plugs have been removed, cleaned with contact cleaner and replaced into the sockets. No obvious wiring continuity issues there.
My plan is to install an 8 pin dummy plug and see if it might be the decoder. Have to get one first.
Any ideas welcomed. The previous owner did a really great paint and decal job so I’d like to fully restore this interesting locomotive.
Custom painted you say? Might have paint where paint shouldn’t be, deoxit won’t clean that off.
Don’t have any of those, so I’m not sure how the power gets fromt he truck to the loco - are there wires to the truck or does it rely on some sort of contact surface like the bolster contact of an Athearn loco? If it’s wires - are they secured to the trucks with thoise silly plastic caps? It’s not uncommon for all but one of the strands in the wire to break off right at the plastic cip, where the insulation of the wire ends, leaving it literally hanging by a thread. Also those palstic caps are unreliable - solder the wires to the tabs. If there’s actually some sort of friction contact instead of wires, it’s pretty easy to get overspray in those kind of areas if not careful, and it doesn;t take a full coat of paint to cause contact issues - even a few drops of overspray can be thick enough to cause an intermittant contact.
I would suggest doing the “glass” test, where you put the loco on a flat surface to see if all the wheels touch the surface, if you have not done so. If they don’t, power pickup may be affected. The loco may also derail on curves and switches.
I agree that paint could be a factor. If you are confident that the gears have been installed properly, it just might be a question of breaking in the loco, that is, breaking in the gears and getting the paint off from the moving parts and power pickups. But to be honest, I would fix all of the gears first, then break it in. This loco was designed as a three truck so having gears that are not operating may lead to problems down the road.
My opinion, your choices, as someone here used to say (I can’t remember who!)
Box says it’s the Weyerhaeuser version. Model number says DC with 8 pin DCC ready. So, diy sound decoder install. Will investigate.
Glass plate test is an excellent suggestion, thanks. Trucks do look a little wonky from the upside down view (of which I got a lot of during the gear replacement saga and that’s just the lead truck!).
Possible paint contamination of the brass side frames is also a helpful idea.
Amazingly, there are no track power pickup wipers on either the truck axles or any of the 12 drive wheels. Therefore, all power must pass from wheel treads through the axle ends into the “bearing surfaces” which are just cast in holes in the side frames. Polarity isolation is effected by a plastic truck bolster and two multi part plastic end frames connecting the two side frames, all held together by just two tiny screws. The total current must pass through each of these tiny screws onto flat spring brass contact strips that carry current up to nickel silver (apparently) rubbing faces which are each wired to the (Bachmann standard) 4 pin and 2 pin plugs on the tender harness).
It passed the glass surface test. Each truck is level and contacting the glass equally except for slightly more weight on the smoke stack end of the boiler. Makes sense since the rear of the locomotive sits on two trucks.
There is an apparently steady improvement in performance. I used the Atlas contactalube on the axle ends and the contact wiper plates and strips. Just tapping the table top beside the locomotive is enough to get it going.
My current working theory is poor conduction from axle ends to side frames. Running more may just solve this.
It sounds liek this is maybe the MDC Boxcab if I understand your decriptions. Brass tabs on the underside of the loco that rub on screws on the trucks to transfer power from the swiveling truck to the loco chassis. This was a bif of a weak spot on the MDC loco, keeping those screw heads clean and the tabs as well pretty much requires dropping the trucks to get at it. And when left to sit, the brass naturally tarnishes. Some running so the screw heads and wipe back and forth on the tabs probably helps a lot to get them clean.
Similar idea. Instead of screw heads, Bachmann elected to use springy brass contact strips secured by the side frame assembly screw and alignment pin on each cast brass side frame. The pressed in bump at the top end of the contact strips rubs on silvery metal pads glued to the underside of the locomotive, coal bunker or tender frame in those three places. The pair of pads are separated from each other by an insulating strip between the pads and are wired to the appropriate tender plug (all black wires). The brass strips reach up from the truck frames.
Presumably, Bachmann didn’t design this Shay from scratch but acquired some moulds from an earlier model maker.
My current working theory is the contact points between the axles and the truck side frames. These seem incapable of making really good contact. A keep alive seems a logical solution.
Testing and investigation continue. Once the power problem is resolved I’ll get the remaining broken gears replaced. Only two axles aren’t driving now. One with a split plastic gear (to be replaced with a NWSL metal gear) and the very front axle needs the drive gear pressing onto the drive shaft by a nanometer or two more in order to engage reliably with the driver gear. That gear can be squeezed a bit further onto the shaft without removing the shaft from the truck frame.
If one gear already cracked - might as well save yourself some trouble and get a complete set, the others WILL crack eventually. This is the approach I’ve taken with all my P2K locos, although the Athearn replacement gears are pretty inexpensive compared to NWSL metal gears.
NWSL only sells sets of 6. I’ve a mind to leave the tender truck gears until one actually breaks. There’s no economies of scale doing more than one needs to. Each individual truck has one drive shaft with two gears. No sense taking out the drive shaft and only replacing one gear but equally, no sense fixing what ain’t yet broke.
Soundtraxx plug n play 3TSLC correctly installed with hard wired speaker in the coal bunker. To bypass this decoder I need to install connectors into the speaker wires in order to remove the decoder from the tender. Not sure why adding these aren’t a routine step to facilitate servicing or updating of the locomotive but I guess I’m about to find out.
Capacitor on the light board is still in circuit but Soundtraxx doesn’t say this needs to be removed. They assert this decoder simply plugs in.
Interestingly, the more I run this locomotive the less power interruptions it experiences. I put conducta-lube into the ends of the axles a few days ago. I haven’t run it much because the big layout is currently dismantled. Before I decide to “fix” this electrical problem and possibly create other difficulties I plan on running this locomotive a lot further.
On reassembling the center truck after the NWSL gear installation I put more conductalube onto each axle end and into the “bearing” socket. Runs even better now. Still not perfect but very close to it.
I’m deferring further work on the electrical issue until I can run this locomotive on properly affixed track. It’s possible the temporary track I’m running on is now to blame.
If I recall there are small wipers on the truck that make contact on the underside of the light board-DO NOT USE THE 8 PIN SOCKET!! Hard wire and save yourself problems. But that is only MO
If just painted there could over spray on the light board.
The wipers do contact a silvered pickup pad (Bachmann part is called a “contact pad”) but that is not part of the “light board”. Those pads are installed outside the bottom of the tender, coal bunker and front of the locomotive frame around the mounting screw boss. They take power from spring brass wipers screwed into the metal truck side frames. The truck bolster is plastic and separates the polarity. There are black wires taking power from those three split and insulated pads into the tender and in turn connected to the DCC 8 pin ready light board. Those pads are OK, I’ve tested them for continuity with the light board. The usual Bachmann four and two pin mini plugs connect the pick up pads to the wires going into the water tender.
The decoder is plugged into the light board with soldered wires to the speaker located in the coal bunker under the “coal load” (which happens to be missing so I need to fabricate one). It’s the factory Soundtraxx decoder installed just as Bachmann did on their factory supplied DCC versions. Soundtraxx offered a DCC kit direct to the aftermarket, identical to the Bachmann install.
I’ve pretty much eliminated the possible continuity deficiencies down to the ends of the axles. The contact would have been better made with axle wipers as for other Bachmann models.
Do you have a good quality Digital Multimeter to make electrical tests on this model?
I would never attempt to troubleshoot an electrical problem without my trusty Fluke. You probably don’t need a meter this good, but I know how to use it for troubleshooting, so I bought the best.
Also, pictures would sure help a lot, and save you an awful lot of typing.
I have an old Radio Shack multimeter my dad bought me years ago saying “everybody needs one of these”. He was right. It’s adequate for my purposes. Using that tells me that the continuity issue is at the axle ends.
I suspected as much by physical “testing” changing the pressure or position of the axle ends in the trucks by pressing down on each truck or pushing a truck frame sideways while on track always restored power. Ergo, it’s the axles. The multimeter confirmed electrical continuity was good from the brass pickup wiper screwed to the metal truck frame all the way to the lightboard.
When I checked that the decoder was the same one Bachmann actually used in their factory DCC version I decided not to run a dummy plug test. Besides, decoder defects aren’t usually this intermittent, nor do decoders suddenly perform better when you spray conductalube onto the axle ends.
As for photo posting you know I refuse to adapt to this site’s primitive software. I can’t post active links internal to this site either. No need to keep asking. Ain’t happening.
Besides, in my profession we abide by this aphorism: why use a picture when 10,000 words would do?
I think you are correct in deduction; the question then becomes the correct fix.
Actual conductive lube (e.g. loaded with silver fines) might work nicely, but I think the real issue is the crappy sideframe material. One approach would be (as I think I’ve suggested in other contexts) to get one of those pen-sized jewelry spot electroplate rigs. Carefully ‘tune’ each cone in the sideframes to the right angle and surface finish and then give it a thick plate of silver. Alternatively you could drill out and use electrical solder to insert a silver bushing cut to the right cone.
I take it that axle or ‘back-of-the-wheel’ wipers are not a functional alternative?
When you try a solution and the situation improves you are lead (led?) to the conclusion that you are on the right track. My next step was to going to be to add a little powdered graphite (Kadee coupler “grease” or powdered lock lubricant) which should lubricate the “bearing” a bit and improve conductivity a bit. Graphite isn’t a very good conductor but it’s better than air. Haven’t tried that. Might defeat the axle isolation is my main concern. Powdered graphite can be whacky stuff when it gets into the wrong place (as inside old worn out distributor caps for example, remember those? I have only the one car still with a distributor, it’s 30 years old).
The “journals” are not conical but straight bore (probably just cast-in holes in reality given the relatively sloppy fit.) To facilitate assembly of the trucks the bearings can’t be tight. I’ve reassembled these trucks a few times now and there’s a bit of a trick to it. You first line up the five “pins” that all have to be fit into the non-geared side truck frame only three of which can be “secured” as the axle ends must float. You then simultaneously align the five matching holes on the geared side truck frame, all with the one hand so you can work the screwdriver with your other hand to tighten the tiny screw in the frame that holds it all together. The tricky part is you need to tilt the cup of your left hand to keep the axles engaged (by gravity) which then tilts the screwhead in the opposite frame away from your screwdriver tip. Holding everything just so and it is easy. Off by a degree or so and no way it works.
When I filed the frames a bit when repairing the plastic clip the metal seemed to be steel but I haven’t looked into that.
I thought about adding axle wipers as Bachmann does for steam locomotive tenders (Bachmann is continuously sold out of these, wonder why?). However, the pickup path is from geared axles rather than idlers
A keepalive is probably the most expedient solution, as it likely addresses any other emergent conductivity issues. I wouldn’t hesitate to install one.
Now I’m also of the opinion that no keepalive run-time can be too long, a perspective that many real model railroaders don’t share. Even so, I’d aim to keep the keepalive on the decoder power at least 2-3 seconds even if motor power assist is shorter… I believe some decoders now have configurable ‘UPS’ delay for the different aspects.
I have not yet tested conductivity of graphite grease, which of course isn’t usually marketed as conductive. Additional loading (with lots!) of graphite dry lube might further enhance the action: the graphite perhaps being squeezed out of hydrodynamic contact but, on the general principle of a Hennessy lubricator, replenished as contact from the cavity to the side…
In a somewhat similar assembly situation (plantation shutters) I used dabs of wax to hold the assembly in alignment until it can be secured or clamped. Then a little heat with absorbent material or a wick removes the visible wax, and if any residual wax impairs freedom of motion, a little solvent followed by absorption should fix things.
I bought three of these shays brand new when they came out in the early 2000’S. Sure, there are gear issues but one thing that my three don’t have issues with is electrical pick up. They can run smooth as glass with no hiccups over some pretty sketchy track. The previous owner of your shay must have gotten paint in the journals or otherwise tweaked it to cause the pick-up problems you are having.
I installed the “drop in” LC decoder in one of my shays. It was pretty straight forward although the decoder itself is ancient technology these days compared to current TSUs or Loksound offerings. There isn’t much room for a keep-alive or other capacitors, in the shell.
In your situation, I might try and find some replacement trucks. BTW: The split gear fix (as you have discovered) is not for the faint of heart. This is why whenever Bachmann makes the side frames or trucks available as separate parts, they sell out quickly.
I know opinions vary, but I have run the wheels off of my Spectrum shays and they still run great and look good. They are still my go-to recommendation for HO shays.
Well, I saw my first HO Shay in 1976 in a friend’s display case. He had no layout at the time. Unpainted brass.
I welcome your enthusiasm for this Spectrum version. It looks very good to me. I like its oddball look and the inventive origin of the original design. Plus the CPR had three of these Lima built 3 truck Shays and they ran on parts of the SE BC Kettle Valley lines until they were scrapped. Up in the mountains hauling ore cars and, presumably, logs.
I had not thought that paint in the axle holes of the frames might be the issue. The axle ends are clean and shiny. This model has been stripped and very nicely repainted from the original Weyerhauser DCC ready version. Maybe paint got into the axle holes?
Paint slowly wearing out of those holes could well explain the improvements in conductivity.
The other Spectrum Shay wanted instead but moved too slowly on had split gears but ran just fine otherwise. These models only need one working axle in order to run. That one seemed to be an undecorated model which I much prefer to trying to repaint.
Still, I intend to persevere with this one. It runs really well until the decoder cuts out. Then you get a crackle from the speaker and silence. The decoder forgets the lights are on and I have to cycle F0 to turn them off (even though they are not lit) and back on again. Oddly, the continuity seems to spontaneously reconnect sometimes and the locomotive gets going again by itself. Now that all drive axles are driving if I select throttle setting above about 30 the Shay shrugs off the breaks in continuity and keeps chugging along. But the lights still stay off after a hiccup.
More running is in order before I dig in any further. If it is paint maybe the conductalube will eventually speed up the wearing off process.
