I’ve been reading How to Build Model Railroad bencwork by Linn Westcott. He recommends moving the legs in away from the edges of the layout and using L girders for the base of the layout above for more stability. I’ve also been reading Ho Model Railroading Handbook by Robert Schleicher that illustrates building the legs at the corners attached directly to the square(or rectangle)grids. The last layout I built I did put them at the corners but also had a 2x4 running down the middle of a 4x8 section and then attached a 4x6 creating an L (this layout was also grid construction with plywood on top) somewhat of an overkill with all of the 2x4 bracing, I could of danced on that benchwork. I now am building a 5x8 due to space limitations. (is’nt that always the case?) In the future I plan on adding on. Finally the question, should I follow Westcotts advice and move the legs in (basicly a table below the gridwork )or just install them at the corners attaching them directly to the grids? Lotta words for that little question! [:)]
I dislike them at corners due to stubbing my toes, kicking the bench, and such. I like them inset for that reason. Fred
Personally I’m not a fan of open grid. Each of the four tables in my room is made of 16 pieces of wood (two L girders, 4 legs, 4 cross braces and 4 leg braces). I find it very light weight, economical, and easy to assemble.
For the table top, I use the cross members and slap a piece fo Homasote on top. Still very light weight, yet strong enough to hold everything I’m liable to put on the layout.
I would put the legs in from the edge. As Flee307 mentioned, there is no worry about stubbing toes or tripping over the legs.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Tom
My layout is of the grid type with legs at the corner. I haven’t had much problem with kicking the legs. I think that’s due to the fact that the layout top is 58" high and I don’t stand as close as I would to say a dining room table at 30".
Enjoy
Paul
Here’s mine from last April. It’s 5x12 feet. It’s a simple open grid made with 1x4’s on the outside, and 1x3 rafters going across. The legs are 2x3’s, and the triangular gussets which stabilize the legs are 1/2 inch plywood. There are some 1x2’s used for diagonal bracing, one across the main frame, and 2 in an X to hold the side legs in place:
This layout is built for lightness. The base is 2-inch foam, no plywood. It’s on casters and rolls around easily on a medium-pile carpet. It’s held together with 2-inch drywall screws. I also read the Westcott book, but decided L-girder was overkill for what I was doing. Besides, it did not really address the caster requirement very well.
I’ve been happy with this simple design. It’s low, mostly to get under the 45-degree roof angle of the family room without being too far out from the wall. As I said, it’s light enough to push around easily even with the foam, tracks and trains, and it’s stable and rigid enough so that nothing shakes much when I roll it around the room.
I just completed my benchwork. I followed Westcott’s teachings to a T. 2 L-girders support joists 16" on center. The legs are inset 2’ from either end. Stronger than I could have imagined, solid as a rock, and very lightweight. I think a benefit of having the legs inset is that they seem more capable of supporting the weight of the layout. If the legs are on the corners of a 5’ x 8’, perhaps the top would be more prone over time to sagging? Just a thought, maybe not. One other consideration too might be how you attach the corner legs. If you add fascia later to the perimeter of your layout, how will you be able to remove the legs without removing the fascia. Again, just a thought. Maybe this won’t pose a problem for you.
Mike
I am very curious about this benchwork stuff guys. I’m not a newbie to Model RR but in the past my layouts have always been small so they were simple plywood on legs style (similar to MrBeasleys but with one large piece of plywood on top). Now I am planning a new 12’x17 layout (as some of you may know), and almost ready to start the benchwork. Question is, what kind?
I was going to just basically use the plywood on L-girder concept for the whole thing. Then, was going to put a thick sheet (2"-4") of foam as a layout base. That way I would get the strength I want (plywood) and still have room to go below grade (2"-4" of foam). Does this seem like serious overkill? I just can’t imagine the thought of my whole layout sitting on just girders and foam. I know the foam is really strong and call me an old timer but it is still foam. Has anybody done it my way and how did it work out?
My layout is 8x12, four identical 2x8 sections linked at the ends to make a donut shape. Each section is made of 1x4’s with cross pieces on 16" centers. Each section has 4 legs, but in reality I could have suspended the two end sections from the other two with no extra legs. In fact, as I plan to expand areoufn the basement, I only intend to put legs on the ‘loose’ end. Add another section, with a pair of legs at the far end, then add another section, etc. It’s plenty strong. Apart from the foam compressing, I could probably stand on it if I had to, and with the cross braces on the legs, it doesn’t wobble when you lean against it or try to shake it. In my mind, it’s plenty strong and stable to support a model railroad. The top is 2" extruded foam, no plywood anywhere.
–Randy
Randy - the foam is that strong? Wow. So you’re answer to my question is that plywood is overkill? I am curious because many people say they use plywood and foam sub-roadbed (I think I got the terminolgy right). Why wouldn’t I just use 2" foam as base and foam for sub-roadbed (assuming I glue track and not nail it)? Wouldn’t that be quieter and easier than plywood and foam? I think I saw a recent thread on this but can’t find it.
Anyone have thoughts on this?
I have 1/4" plywood under the foam just to give me something to attach to on the bottom side.
The only reason to use plywood under 2 inch foam is what jxtrrx said, to give something to attach to. The whole concept of L-girder construction is that all the screws go from the bottom up. Foam doesn’t hold screws worth a darn!
The plywood doesn’t have to be thick under 2" foam, just thick enough to hold screws. Also makes mounting switch machines below the roadbed a lot easier.
My own benchwork is L girder type, but built with steel studs. Subroadbed is laminated thin plywood reinforced with steel. (Dessication does strange things to wood, so keeping plywood flat is an issue, even with only 16 inch spans.) What foam I do use is 1/4 inch fan-fold underlayment, used where most folks use cork (another material which doesn’t react well to high heat and zero humidity).
I don’t lay track directly on the foam, I used the Woodland Scenics foam roadbed. All ‘glued’ with latex caulk. I don’t have a noise problem. While othr combinations might well be quieter, the predominate sound I hear when runnign trains is the swish of the metal wheels on the rail, NOT any kind of out of place drumming sound from the foam. I’m not sure what I’ve done differently than the people who have complained of the noise. Could be the caulk adhesive, or having supports 16" OC (the foam would support itself over a wider span, 2’ for sure - so I COULD use less wood), or the partcular variation of foam I use. The local Home Depot only sells Owens-COrning (pink) Foamular 250, which is the middle grade as far as strength (and probaly thus density) goes. Some places may get the Foamular 150 or the heavier 400/600/1000 line (very strong and designed to go against or under concrete forms). The Foamular 1000 has a 100PSI supprot strenth - unless you were wearing spikes you could certainly stand on that. I have no idea how much something like that costs, probably much more than good grade plywood, whereas the common Foamular 250 is less expensive.
–Randy
I had a small section of foam with no plywood under and experienced lots of reverberation noise as trains rolled into the “foam only” area. The difference in mine and what Randy decribes is mine was only 1" foam. I bet that’s the root of the noise problem. (Thicker maybe reverbs less).
When you have your legs inset from the actual edge of the layout, you are less likely to kick the legs when you are working on the layout, and it is easier to hide the legs with a curtain. The ultimate of this is a walk-in layout where you have brackets connected to the wall, so there are no legs whatsoever.
On the other hand, if you decide to build straight down, you could incorporate shelves or something right there.
Remember, though, that even kitchen cabinets have a toe-space so you can stand as close as you tend to do without stubbing your toes.
Ah ha! Jack, I think you hit what I wanted to know. If I am going to be mounting under the table slow-mo machines, etc, I want that 1/4" plywood base for mounting stuff to. That makes alot of sense. Then a 2" layer of foam on top of plywood. Then I will use Woodland Scenics roadbed or AMI. It’s all coming together now. Thanx gang for all the great input!
Don’t overlook the part about tilt and sag. Moving the legs (ideally) at 1/5 and at 4/5 the distance of the girder, not only adds to stability but also increases load bearing by reducing sag and tilt. See figure 1 on page 35.
Consider too that you will have an amount of toe space related to the overhang of the joist. See figure 4-9, page 30
i was thinking of just glueing a 4"x4" piece of 1/4" plywood to the bottom of the foam then screwing a tortoise to that . could probably go with a smaller piece of plywood if space is tight , or a larger piece if 2 tortoises are close to each other . i’d love to hear pro and con arguements about this before i start construction (maybe this summer)
Well I mounted my Tortoises from the top through the foam. But I’m in the midst of an experiment to just glue them onthe bottom with the same latex caulk I used for everything else. So far, it seems stable. The Tortoise held on by itself while the caulk was drying. Next step is to see how easily it peels off, which I suspect will be quite easy. Then I need to put it in place where it operates an actual turnout and see if it withstands the sideways force of the operating wire. If this works it will make things even easier, no messy squares to cut in the foam and still no plywood required.
–Randy
Con (well, more con than pro)
For the base for my roundhouse and turntable I used a 4’ X 4’ X 1/4" outdoor plywood under a 4’ X 4’ x 2" extruded foam.
As soon as I applied the glue to the plywood, it warped, a lot. I used all the heavy weights I could find, on top of another sheet of plywood, on top of the foam (just to protect the foam from dents).
After the glue set, It came out somewhat flat, but not perfectaly flat as I wanted. The warping did give me a bit of trouble with fitting the rear walls to the base of the roundhouse. But consider that the roundhouse spans across the whole 4 x 4 section and I shoot for perfection (however, I often miss the bulls eye). Maybe a sag or bow of 1/16" - 1/8" won’t be a problem for you though.
Actually, I went downstairs tonight to check out a few things, and now that it’s beena few weeks since I glued the Tortoise under the foam with calk - it’s solid as can be. No way if the force of the spring wire going to move it. I think I found a new way to proceed - skip cutting the square, skip making squares of perf board, just drill a whole and caulk the Tortoise underneath, pretty much the same as with plywood. In fact you probably could use the caulk to mount the Tortoise on plywood and skip the screws. There’s a good half hour of working time to get it aligned, then let the caulk set up for 24-48 hours, and off you go.
I can’t believe how useful latex cauk is in building a layout. I could probably glue the foam to the wood benchwork with it even, guess I’ll have to try that next.
–Randy