I just ran voltage and current measurements before and after lubing a 229 that I have. This is with the engine pulling a whistle tender and 3 passenger cars with lighting. The only change was lubing the engine. The current dropped from 3-3.5 amps to 2-2.5 amps. The train now runs smoothly at 11 volts. It is running on a small loop of O-27 track. I did lube the commutator.
What do you mean you lubed the commutator? Isn’t that where the brushes make contact?
Oiling the commutator or brushes has been advocated recently on the forum. It is claimed to reduce friction and not to be harmful. I am skeptical. The 2037 I was running under the Christmas tree got balky and finally stopped running entirely today. I opened it up and found sticky stuff on the commutator and brushes. The brush springs would not move the brushes within their tubes. I had bought the motor a few years ago, but ran the locomotive very little until this Christmas. I cleaned commutator and brushes with an eraser and oiled and greased elsewhere; and it runs fine now.
Bob,
I am sure it depends strongly on what type of lube is used on the commutator. I am still running the 2046 without problems. I oiled the commutator on this engine about 2 months ago, and it is not having a problem. If you want, I can run this by two guys I work with that are experts on lubricants. I am oiling all the commutators on my engines, and so far I don’t have a problem. However, I am sure that not all lubricants will work. I am using 5W-20 engine oil.
I’ve been working on emergency backup engine generators for 20 years and one of the things we have to do is clean the commutator so that they were free of any oil to avoid any problems. Oil would eventually glaze over and get into the brushes. The oil also attracts dust in the brushes and they would stick causing arcing until they would fail. Also, the brushes are made up of graphite for lubrication and the oil is supposed to interfere with the graphite. We have to replace the brushes if they become saturated with oil
I used to use WD40 on the older generators with open contactors to lube the contact pivot points to save time and then I would use contact cleaner to clean off the oil off the contacts. I started to have major problems with the contacts sticking because the contact cleaner was hardening the oil and I had to quit this practice. Someone else mentioned that they stripped down the gears with contact cleaner then added grease and I wondered if the same kind of problems I had would arise.
Although I am not a hobby train expert and only a few weeks into this hobby, I concur that oil on the cummutator is BAD NEWS. You will not have problems for a while, but once the brush gets caked up and the cummutator gets dust and grime, you will be spending time all over again cleaning it. The good news is, aside from needing new brushes and so elbow grease, you will not really damage the motor.
This comes from experiance with car starters & alternators, and general electric motor repair on many things I have owned over the years.
I wouldn’t expect this to be settled anytime soon.
RC car racers have fought about “comm drops” and there effectiveness for the last 20 years. Now there is not as much talk about it because the RC hobby has mostly moved to “brushless” motors.
My arsenal of RC car motors and tuning equipment does not include commutator drops. I would not expect to be using any oil or comm drops on my trains commutators anytime soon.
I would add a drop of oil where needed but not on the commutator or brush faces. Like everything else just one guys 2 cents.[:)]
Bob, sure beats the heck out of me. For years we have cleaned and shinned the commutator, cleaned out the sections between the them and I even lightly emory clothed the end of the brushes. Now we hear this. Might be something new for us “old dogs”.
Hello folks
Its an interesting thought so I just did a google search on this question and found a website that sells a lube product for model trains for this purpose . Listed below is there description of the product and the benefits…its listed under there products for model trains .The website is aerocar.com . Im not posting this as an advetrisment ,just as a piont of referance that the benefits spoke of earlier in this thread are being realised and marketed.
":Cleans and lubricates commutators and brushes. Enhances performance and extends brush life. it Has been found to reduce amp draw by as much as 50%. Improves current flow through brushes to the commutator. Will enhance the capabilities of DCC operations.
Rather than asking an expert on lubricants, ask an expert on motor / generators.
As an experiment, I tried using one of the Caig Labs moving contact lubricants on a motor during a recent service. (Caig suggested using it on commutators) I put on a very light coat, as in applying the lub, and removing whatever would come off with a clean rag. In theory, the coat was as light as could be.
The engine ran nicely when the work was first done, but after letting the locomotive sit for a month or so, the engine wouldn’t run right, and had to be cleaned.
I did a search for motor brush lubricant, and did come up with some hits for products that are targeted towards slot car people. Maybe they work. Maybe slotcar people clean their motors before every race.
The material that the brushes are made from already have lubricating properties. I think that’s good enough for me, or for anybody who has a train serviced by me.
I don’t want people to come back with problems. When a train leaves my bench, it has to be right the first time.
I also find it curious that folks think automotive lubricants are appropriate for toy trains. I don’t need to check my inventory to know that none of my trains have internal combustion engines, nor are they exposed to the temperature extremes that a car or truck would be.
I use Labelle lubricants, along with several products from Caig Labs.
“Many of the LaBelle Lubricants recommended for model railroaders are exactly the same as used by NASA in the space program.” I find it curious that one would think that space-program lubricants are appropriate for toy trains. None of my trains have rocket engines, nor are they exposed to the temperature extremes, vacuum, and radiation that a spacecraft would be.
I think that lubricants need to be looked at objectively by engineers knowledgeable in that field. Unfortunately, all we seem to have is advertising copy from sellers of expensive boutique quantities of greases and oils that they allege are somehow peculiarly suitable for toy trains, while incidentally curing every other squeaky wheel: “LaBelle 102…Exposed gear boxes on all sorts of Household items, squeaky door hinges, Riding toys, musical instrument keys, mechanical toys of all types.” These products may be somehow more suitable for trains than ordinary general-purpose lubricants; but I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn that they are the general-purpose lubricants, repackaged and marked up.
Atlas makes a conductive lube for model trains and they claim you can lube the brushes and commutator. I was silly enough to try it once and quickly ended up with a dirty armature and brushes. I also tried lubing the rollers and they quickly became gummed up. Even a small drop of oil can work its way down the armature shaft and dirty up the commutator. Since I do not particularly like tearing down locomotives to clean them I will stick with the way we have always done it.
Roger
I talked with my friend Frank last night who is an expert on lubricants among other things. He has a degree in Mechanical Engineering and 40+ years of experience with the design, building, and test of precision mechanical devices. Some of these devices were for use in space and some for use on aircraft and some for use on ground vehicles. Our experience with lubricants is similar except he is not as enthusiastic about WD-40 as I am.
We both agree that use of grease is a bad idea. The greases have light oils in them, and the vapor pressure of the oil is high enough that over time the oils evaporate leaving behind the clay or whatever was used to make the oil into a grease. More on this later.
We also agree that the use of light oils like 3 in 1 is a bad idea, as these oils also have comonents that have a high vapor pressure, and when these components evaporate you have a gummy mess. This is the reason I chose automotive engine oil. It has a low vapor pressure and so doesn’t evaporate very fast and so doesn’t become gummy.
I have two data points to emphasize the above. I bought a 736 engine and tender about a year ago. It was locked up solid. I took it apart and found some reddish-brown grease that had turned to stone. I soaked it down with WD-40 to loosen and remove the grease. I have not lubed it with oil yet as I am not running it right now, but when I checked it a few weeks ago, the engine was still very free.
I took a 2025 out of the box this week that has not been run since 1965. I lubed it with 20W-40 Valvoline engine oil in 1965. I remember this very well because I was using 20W40 oil in an old Chevy I had and used the same oil in the oil can, and I lubed everything with the oil can. The engine was still free and ran well when I put it on the track. I am sure there was some oil on the commutator, but at that time I was not lubing the commutators on purpo
Here is the site that johnjay2 spoke of http://www.aerocarlubricants.com/
Some competitive RC racers will disassemble their motors after every 5 minute heat (race) and clean and re lube all parts. While apart they may even lightly cut the comm on a lathe with a diamond bit. Then dyno tune with different brushes, change spring rates, align brush hoods and zap the can magnets. Would they use comm drops to try and get an edge… of course. I had a recipe for making my own go fast comm drops.
Just trying to put things in perspective of how comm drops have been used in other hobbies. It would be difficult to know what drops are safe in the long run of 10-20 years because in my application the motors were highly maintained. And after the commutators are worn down just a little they are just tossed out or given away.
Well Bob, since you are lampooning my comment, perhaps you’d like to share the source of your quote about LaBelle Lubricants. It didn’t come from me, nor do I see it elsewhere in the thread. Are you trying to imply that I saw that tripe, and use LaBelle products because of it?
I am not 100 percent clear on the information your friend Frank provided.
Do these slip ring assembly have gold plated metal brushes, or are they graphite / carbon?
If they are gold plated metal, then I would expect that some sort of lubricant would be deisrable.
Graphite / carbon brushes are supposed to be self lubricating. (They are available in various compositions with properties that vary according to the application)
I did a quick Google on slip rings. It seems that at least some of them have metal brushes, either gold, or sliver plated. The first site I visited even had mercury (liquid) “brushes”. Some of the sites indicated that their slip ring assemblies were sealed, to keep dust / dirt from fouling the assembly, as some of us have commented about.
Unless one is doing repairs for other people, it really doesn’t matter to anybody else how you maintain your trains. If a particular technique works, that’s great.
.
I have been using Marvel Air Tool Oil on my HO engines for many years. I’ve inadvertently gotten some on an occasional commutator with absolutely no perceivable ill effects of any kind. Now that I’m into three-rail O gauge I continue to use this product along with Lucas Heavy Duty Air Tool Oil where a slightly heavier lube might be beneficial, such as on locomotive axles. Air tool oils contain rust inhibitors and they are rubber and plastic compatible, pretty much meeting the requirements of a toy train lube. I’m pretty sure that the overpriced toy-train specific lubricants are merely relabeled and repackaged products that were originally intended for other uses.
Pete
I’ve always suspected this myself and I know it to be true of other products used in scenery.
Google “Many of the LaBelle Lubricants” to see the identical claim on several different web sites selling LaBelle. I have little doubt that LaBelle supplied that wording to their distributors.
My point was that it is fallacious to imagine that, because a product is used for one purpose, it is inappropriate for another. You seemed to argue that, for example, automotive grease should not be used on toy trains because they lack internal-combustion engines. I was trying to show that the same kind of invalid argument can be used against LaBelle.
If using automotive lubricants (grease or oil) float your boat, go for it. The properites that are desireable in automotive lubricants are not necessarily desireable for toy trains. (which is what I wrote, not what you thought you read) Automobile engine oils have detergents in them. Are these detergents desireable for a toy train? If so, why?
Want to risk having these oils/grease get on your clothing, rugs, etc, and staining them? Go for it.
I don’t want it on my stuff, and I don’t want a call from a customer about the products that I used staining something in their home.
Even if I am working on an engine thats only worth 10-15 dollars, let alone one that is worth hundreds, I am not about to worry about whether the oil I’m using cost a tenth of one cent, or a dime. (And I doubt I’ve ever used a dime’s worth of lubricant on a single piece in one maintenance cycle)