In order to have more and better bass, I can´t understand how, in 2007, no DCC manufacturer developed a better speaker, heaviest, with an important magnet and Kevlar cone, not the cheap and thin thing that they are today…! What do you think? Bye.
Doc,
I’m sorry, but with all your DCC-related posts this week, I can’t help but think of this scene:
“I want an Oompaloompa NOW, Daddy!!!”
Just kidding…[:D]! I’d used this on another board, but it seems to fit here too…!
I think there is a real good reason. They cost more and people are already complaining. Thick is also a problem when it comes to diesels and electrics. In steam they could put in thicker, heavier speakers with no problems, at least the bigger steam engines.
But people are already complaining about the price they pay for sound units so I do not think that an even larger price tag is the solution. Usually the sounds are to noisy anyways and it’s better to just let them make a little noise in the background.
Magnus
What we need (and I am serious) is a subwoofer system for DCC. Then the little speaker in the loco can put out directional high range sound while the unidirectional bass rumble would come from under the layout.
This is how 5.1 systems work… it would be fantastic for layouts. A large layout could combine several subwoofers with a block detection system to move the rumble to the part of the layout room the loco is occupying.
Since my room is small and I use N-SCale… I would like to take it farther and combine block occupancy detection with sattelite speakers at the different scenes to carry the high range of sound as well. A computer running DCC software and a surround mixer should be able to do this with the right software…
Regards,
Chris
You don’t really want to know what I think…but I’ll tell you what I’ve learned over the years.
The speaker quality isn’t necessarily the issue. There are some really great speakers out there (do you want to pay $60 per speaker per locomotive?), but even the best won’t produce what you are wanting. Reproduction of bass is a matter of moving a lot of air. There isn’t physically anyway to move that much air from an HO or N scale model. As the prior posted mentions it is probably a matter of getting off-unit speakers that are activated by the location of the train on the layout. Even then it is more than speakers, the sound processor manufacturers would have to start making units that could produce that low of a signal on their outputs. Today they don’t even worry about trying to make those frequencies because they know no on-board speaker would be able to reproduce them anyway.
It’s not just a question of better speakers, but also of the wattage needed to drive a speaker. The power output of sound decoders is limited by the availability of amplifier microchips that are reasonably sized without requiring large heatsinks. And the cones on speakers small enough to fit inside model trains are too small to move air at low frequencies.
I’ve been thinking about this even since I started getting involved with hobby ( all of about 4 months now [:D] ) and I believe that ChrisNH, has the answer right on the nose. Under table subwoofers, with on board speaker for the high range sounds.
Under table subwoofers,
Better make sure your scenery is glued down good.
Scale the sound people…scale the sound. Go stand 300 feet from a rail line and take a listen.
David B
I have, there is still much more rumble and clank than clickity russssshhhhhh.
( and depending on the terrain, quite often it can still be felt through the feet ).
True. If our trains were truly part of a miniature universe, then the sound waves would be scaled down as well. That would result in shorter (higher) frequencies, to our ears. I’ve heard people running big sound systems with a lot of bass for their layout sound effects, and I thought the effect was kind of lame. IMO, there’s a big disconnect between 1:1 bone-rattling bass, and that tiny little loco pulling its train around your pike.
Maybe a compromise could be reached somewhere in the upper bass frequencies, but it’s not that easy to achieve for reasons stated previously. The original sound samples must have low-end as well, and I don’t think anything the manufacturers are putting in these chips come close to that.
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The air absorbs and dampens high frequencies, not bass. That’s why thunder, heard at a distance, is all bass component.
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Making bass is a matter of moving large quantities of air, which requires large speakers, which require massive amplifiers. Never going to happen onboard model trains.
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Bass is omnidirectional, treble is unidirectional. That’s why home theaters and 5.1 sound systems have many small satellite speakers for the high end, but only one subwoofer. For improved frequency response in model train sound systems, you don’t need block detection. leave the high frequencies onboard, feed the bass to a stationary subwoofer, and you ears will “cause” the bass to follow the train around the track.
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There’s a technological hurdle involved in doing sound this way. The sound signal source is in the decoder, on the train. That electrical signal either has to travel along wires to the subwoofer amp and speaker, or else you have to use two decoders, and make sure they stay in perfect sync. If you reverse the wires on one speaker in your home stereo, one speaker will be pushing, while the other is pulling. They cancel each other out, in strange ways. The effect can be weak, tinny sound, or it can be an effect called comb filtering, which just sounds strange.
Trying to feed an audio signal through the rails will interfere with the AC power already running there. Bass is typically defined as being those frequencies between 20 and 125 cycles per second (hertz). Standard power line alternating current is right in the middle, at 60 hertz. No idea what frequency DCC power signals alternate at. There are also bandwidth issues to contend with, and in the case of multiple trains operating simultaneausly, these problems are compounded.
You could transmit the signal wirelessly, if you had room for a transmitter in the model, and were willing to suffer audio degradation in a high RF environment.
Most likely solution is going to be two decoders, one on
I agree with this largely. It would be helpful for our hosts, Kalmbach, to have a credible article put this into perspective for modelers. Let’s face it, sound in engines is here to stay. It will get better, but it will cost us more to get there. That’s the simple stuff. But why don’t the manufacturers go the extra step and suggest ways to get the most out of this really nifty modeling experience? Why not caution the user about volumes in excess of 60% of the system’s engineered capacity? Why ship us QSI decoders maxed out in volume so that the speakers crackle and distort the sound that is meant to impress us? Why!!!?
You can’t hear a diesel switcher idling from further back, especially in bush, than about 150m. Get close, and sure you’ll get that nice sub-woofer effect. But on our HO layouts, 150m is just over 2.5’ (not calculated, just off the top). Will our analog ears notice that a QSI SW8 sound different from another on the far side of the yard? Well, if they’re both set near their maxes, not much they won’t. Turn down the volumes to something nearer 50%, though, and you will notice something of a difference.
You won’t for the same scalar reasons with subwoofers spaced 10 feet apart. It’ll all just be a deep rattle.
This is something I very much agree with. The sound from the speakers are just to loud. I’ve begun a project now as soon as I change the address of a loco I also turn the volume down to about half. it sounds much better. On maximum it gets loud and there is a lot of noise basically. It is not impressive to crank it out loud but it’s like kids with a new stereo, it is often not the quality but volume that impresses people.
I recently got an Athearn Challenger. That thing is so loud I can’t stand it. If I sit down to close it I want to throw in to the wall. And there is no Central volume control, the manual says a small screw on the tender but I can’t find one. They really should set the sound to about 40-60%. The problem only worsens with each engine you got on the layout.
There are small speakers nowadays that can produce relatively large amounts of base. But they are very expensive and would also as someone pointed out use to my juice to be worth using. And when I say expensive I mean that you would but the speakers and you get an engine to go with it. But there are great small speakers now a days.
Magnus
Very true. I think on a larger layout with 6-7 trains runnign during an op session, if you could hear ALL of the locos anywhere in the room it would quickly get annoying. Standing in one spot, you should hear a train as it approaches your location and as it departs, btu not when it’s a scale 20 miles away.
–Randy
[quote user=“jeffers_mz”]
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The air absorbs and dampens high frequencies, not bass. That’s why thunder, heard at a distance, is all bass component.
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Making bass is a matter of moving large quantities of air, which requires large speakers, which require massive amplifiers. Never going to happen onboard model trains.
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Bass is omnidirectional, treble is unidirectional. That’s why home theaters and 5.1 sound systems have many small satellite speakers for the high end, but only one subwoofer. For improved frequency response in model train sound systems, you don’t need block detection. leave the high frequencies onboard, feed the bass to a stationary subwoofer, and you ears will “cause” the bass to follow the train around the track.
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There’s a technological hurdle involved in doing sound this way. The sound signal source is in the decoder, on the train. That electrical signal either has to travel along wires to the subwoofer amp and speaker, or else you have to use two decoders, and make sure they stay in perfect sync. If you reverse the wires on one speaker in your home stereo, one speaker will be pushing, while the other is pulling. They cancel each other out, in strange ways. The effect can be weak, tinny sound, or it can be an effect called comb filtering, which just sounds strange.
Trying to feed an audio signal through the rails will interfere with the AC power already running there. Bass is typically defined as being those frequencies between 20 and 125 cycles per second (hertz). Standard power line alternating current is right in the middle, at 60 hertz. No idea what frequency DCC power signals alternate at. There are also bandwidth issues to contend with, and in the case of multiple trains operating simultaneausly, these problems are compounded.
You could transmit the signal wirelessly, if you had room for a transmitter in the model, and were willing to suffer audio degradation in a high RF environment.
Most likely solution is going
Magnus, either the tender cover lifts off and you’ll find the master volume screw, or one of the covers comes off…maybe the water filler hatch must be pryed off with a sharp blade wedged between the cover and the deck? Don’t the instructions have an exploded diagram showing the cover that comes off?
-Crandell
I ordered a pair of what they call High-Bass speakers from Tony’s. They have a heavy metal cone and a large gasket that it floats on. I got both sizes, a 1.10 inch and a 1.06 inch speaker but the enclosures for them are on backorder. I was going try to hook one up to my Tsunami I installed in my Allegheny but then I ended up being selected for a jury. Hope that it ends this coming week. The speakers look to be thicker than most at least a half inch so they may be a little hard to squeeze in the tender.
Thanks Jim
If layouts had subwoofers placed at various locations underneath, you’d have to compete with the youngsters stopped at public crossings at grade with there subwoofers blaring. I think it’s a great idea, what is missing is the rumble of the prime mover as the loco rolls by and I think a subwoofer under the layout would definately replicate that sound.
IT’S SIMPLE.
SMALL speakers cannot create enought bass to virate your eardrums. it’s the Laws of Physics. Neither can a ‘knothole’ allow enought light in to illuminate a room.
Speakers are ‘Transducers’ - a disk or megaphone of sorts that vibrates the air. 1. Your ears hear ‘air’ vibrations - nothing more.
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Bass (moving air) is expen$ive. A 30 foot air column will produce ‘bass’. Pipe Organs have a raft of these, so will a $500+ subwoofer with a large cone driver. Computer speakers won’t do it. Metal cones won’t either, nor ‘bottle cap’ enclosures (both reinforce the highs).
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Want bass on the cheap? (A pair of good stereo headphones - around $50) - provided you have 10 watts of amplifier to drive them.
1" speakers with a 1 watt amplifier won’t cut it, however SOMETHING is better than nothing, Yes?