The comments sections are as you might expect folks that know, folks that don’t and folks with good intentions.
I think it’s an interesting technology experiment for a university, but I found it quite interesting that the article itself and much of the commentary on it miss a few key things.
First and formost, the equivalency that they’ve chosen seems ilconceived. I’m not a Railroader, but I know enough to know that one of the things that caused diesel to dominate over steam was that it could actually run further than a steam engine could. Creating a battery system that has the ability to haul a train about the same distance as a typical steam engine doesn’t have relevance to the modern railroad. That distance also isn’t defined as on level ground or over mountains. That makes a big difference.
In addition, the notion of dragging multiple boxcars worth of battery behind the engines seems extremely undesirable if not unnecessary. Though, for purposes of an experiment it’s fine.
The other aspect that is disappointing is it doesn’t offer any context vs the current battery electric engines that are on offer. This is a newsworthy item as far as it goes, but EMD and Wabtec both of engines on offer already. The Wabtex FLX in particular would be worth comparing to this yet it doesn’t.
Wasn’t the NS’S 999 a battery locomotive, sponsered by an University, recharged from Norfollk Southern’s coal fired steam plant at the Juniata shop ? So this might be the sneaky reintroduction of the steam locomotive.
CN just purchased Wabtecs Flexdrive battery locomotive and is testing it on long haul trains. The technology for long haul battery operated trains is here.
Until that battery is dead and no way to recharge it or it’s the middle of winter. My neighbor bought a Tesla for herself. The first cold snap she replaced it with a regular gasoline powered car. Why her range went from 300 miles a charge to less than 100. They don’t have any reserve capacity to run heat for the occupants in the winter.
STC Owner, but we’re not supposed to talk about that.
I live in the Twin Cities of Minnesota - tons of Teslas running around in the warm months.
They pretty much disappear off the roads when the weather starts turning cold. For the most part (with a few exceptions of course) they are pretty much not to be seen approximately November through March.
Don’t get me wrong - I don’t have anything at all against electric vehicles (even have retirement funds invested in them) as long as they are paying for their own fuel costs (charging), but reality is there are about 280 million vehicles in this country and we can barely keep the lights on as it is, and barely keep houses heated where electric heat is used, and there is a lot of cold weather in a lot of the country for a lot of the year.
But it is heresy, unfortunately, to be 100% okay with EVs, but still recognize that until there is some other innovation that can work more reliably through the whole year at an economical “fuel” cost per mile, and in a vehicle that uses technology that is affordable for the vast majority of people, there is still going to be a need for some sort of gasoline or diesel-powered vehicles for some time. I agree with Bjorn Lomborg - we need to innovate our way through this. EVs are part of the solution, for sure. Part of the solution. But it will take other parts of the solution that have not been invented yet, and some parts of the solution that have been invented but pretty much not allowed in the US (i.e. 4th generation nuclear baseload plants and more hydro).
Now I am going to duck for cover from the inevitable incoming artillery shells.
I can tell you this much about winter roads in WY. Just what will happen to all those EV’s when the roads get closed and people can not charge them up when they need to. Should be an interesting investigation say if a school bus that is EV ran out of power in the middle of the night on a cold night and Lord help us all if say 30-40 kids of a school froze to death. Do not laugh it can and will happen if they do not allow internal combustion engines to be sold in the future. Okay this is from my husbands time as a driver. He was going across ND one night in Blizzard conditions the Low for the night hit -60 with a windchill of below -100. Even straight #1 diesel in his tanks with a fuel heater was starting to jell in his tanks. Just how long do you think a battery pack in an EV is going to last in those temps.
This is supposed to be a TRAINS FORUM not a cars forum. The Wabetec Flexdrive locomotive recharges it self by using regenerative braking. That is an old and proven technologty, so running out of power does not happen.
Sure there are a few that want 100% EV, but most people probably realize that won’t happen fora. little bit longer yet. Different cars for different needs.
Esp. considering many people have more than one car. If I had a convenient place to recharge an EV, I’d probably look into one with my short commute. But I wouldn’t go for one as my only car at the present time. 10 years from now? Who knows.
Battery locomotives will make the most sense where there are many relatively short hills, where there are many opportunities to use regenerative braking. They would also make sense in helper districts, though I don’t know how many helper districts are left.
Since one Flexdrive is run between two diesel locomotives it can run 40 minutes at full power, use regenerative power from dynamic braking or get power from the diesel locomotives like a mate road slug and keep the batteries charged.
Since this setup claims to save 30% on fuel costs, what is the payout benefit? Instead of two expensive locomotives, there are now three expensive locomotives. How many years will it take the 30% fuel savings to pay for the third locomotive?
How much battery power will be needed in winter to keep the batteries warm? Will the diesels need to idle in run 1 or 2 or 3 power to keep the batteries warm? My Li ION battery packs say keep temps between 41 and 104 degrees ( F ). (5c - 40c ) My smart charger will not charge them if the temps are outside that band. They do heat up above 104 occsionally when used continously so have to let them cool before charging. ( fire risk )
So both heat and cooling might be needed in a battery car ?
Operation has many questions. Appears battery car would be a rebuilt old loco frame? Now suppose battery is depleted at top of hill but has just a short down hill section to recharge before going up next hill? DB braking from the battery car and loco might work? To improve charging would diesel loco generate power as well to charge battery car? That would certainly require very heave power cables from loco to battery car. Just cannot imagine any battery able to charge 3 times faster that discharging.l
Any large Li-ion battery pack will hav some sort of thermal management system, EV batteries will typicaly be liquid cooled (though batteries on ca 2000 Toyota Rav 4 EV’s were air cooled). I would think that keeping a large battery pack warm would take about the same amount of energy used for keeping a diesel engine block warm. That said, a battery loco that’s part of a consist that includes diesel locomotives could be kept warm and charged by having the diesel engines charging the batteries while they are running to keep warm.
Cooling would be a tougher nut to crack, especially during summers in the western deserts.
Railway Age had an article on the Flexdrive locomotives. It can run 40 minutes on it’s own. It’s not really designed to completely replace diesel-electrics on a one for one basis. Rather it’s to help reduce the use of diesel fuel. Think of it as a road slug on steroids. One that can operate at higher speeds.
One advantage railroads have over highways is that one can string overhead wire, at least over heavily travelled sections of track. This is much simpler than the inductive power transmission from a roadway proposed for trucks.
Just as the inductive power transmission idea coming out Utah State is meant as a range-extender for battery-electric trucks, a battery locomotive may allow electric operation with fewer tracks covered by overhead wire. Perhaps only one mainline track needs the overhead wire and trains could enter siding, yards, branchlines on battery power?