OK here it would seem that after we plant,fertilise,and hravest the corn then ship it by train to the ethanol and corn oil pressing plant then burn BTUs to distill the fual it would seem that we have consumed more then we have gotten out of the stuff.
Not to mention that increased demand for Ethanol is going to drive up the price of corn and corn food products.
You may be correct, but you also need to consider the fuel type being consumed to make ethanol. If the primary fuel source for processing grains into ethanol is coal, then you are in effect indirectly “liquifying” coal to replace imported petroleum, so even though you might be consuming alot of BTU’s to make ethanol you come out ahead in the “energy independence” game. But if you’re using natural gas or petroleum distillates to process the grains into ethanol, it becomes at best a zero sum gain, and at worst a net loss.
From the very start, ethanol has been promoted to increase demand for corn, and thus raise the price of corn. In recent years, it’s use has been promoted to lessen the dependance on oil.
My old pickup loses 5% to 7% MPG on 10% Ethanol blend. The newer car loses about 3%.
- Current ethanol production uses less BTU’s total(planting/harvesting/trucking to the plant) that is produced - so it is now viable. BTW, most of the corn that goes to ethanol plants in Northen Iowa/Southern Minnesota are trucked to large ‘local’ ethanol plants. The ethanol and spent corn is shipped out by raila from the one I have seen.
- Bio-diesel has not hit that same economic level - yet. Of course, ethanol was like that only 5-10 years ago.
Flex-Fuel vehicles do not have the same fuel mileage/power charateristics, but then the fuel costs less(at least around here). As far as 10% ethanol fuel - I cannot tell any power or mileage difference between the two fuels in my 2002 V6 truck. A friend has a 2005 Expedition and said that the pickup/mileage are less with E85, but so far the actual cost/mile is about the same or cheaper than with regular gasolene.
Any of these alternative fuels have plus/minus issues, and it really makes no big difference if that is the only fuel that happens to be available the day you pull up to the pump!
Jim
The ratio btu’s in/btu’s out is worse for refining gasoline than ethanol.
The problem here is that unless the plants burn there own fuel that they themselves are producing to not only distill the ethanol but to also run the generators that run the lights and the computers in the office it would seem more of a conversion of energy rather then producing more energy…
Not only does the price of corn go up, but beef prices and many other products in the food chain, since farmers will opt to plant the more profitable type instead of feed corn or other less profitable crops. I believe the idea is to make Ethanol from plant cellulose, but that process requires even more energy in.
I don’t understand the hype about Ethanol at all. Various types of synthethic diesel makes far more sense. It can be made from bio-mass, coal, old french-fry grease, and even pig-poop. Although the price of diesel is similar to gasoline, diesel-fueled vehicles get much better fuel mileage, instead of less with ethanol/gasoline and I believe it’s much easier technically to get a diesel to run on the different types of fuels. IMO the Europeans are way ahead of us.
With the price of Gasoline in Europe being in the $8 a gallon range, and diesel not cheap either, its not hard to see why fuel economy is more important. But they are not even as far along as we are in Ethanol or Biodiesel.
Say Tom. Do you have any links for us to look at? I have never seen this discussed.
Sorry I dont. It was a news thing that popped up related to my ‘investment center’ on Quicken. It was sometime last week and I cant find it. It had an interview section with Vinod Khosla who had brought that point up
Therefor it is better to get the ethanol from the corn stalk or suger cane instead of the corn cobbs. They deliver much more (don’t remember the numbers) per unit of weight than corn cobbs do and in case of the corn stalks: they are a by-product of corn production and as such require no extra effort to obtain.
Unfortunately, the techniques to do this is not yet perfected (AFAIK)…
That’s because over here ethanol is not viewed as a viable alternative for Europe(!!!)
We don’t have the farmland that can be used to produce the vast quantities of corn needed to produce enough fuel economically. In the US, that situation is different and therefor more viable than in Europe.
Over here, we are indeed more focused on saving fuel by increasing efficiency and by means of hybrid technology. [8D]
Don’t know about you, but I’m not yet desperate enough for dietary fiber that I eat the corn “cobbs” (sic). It’s the grain I’m after; so are most meat animals, unless they are really, really hungry and there is absolutely nothing else available for them to eat. Ethanol is distilled from the corn grains, and cobs are a byproduct just like the stalks.
I don’t understand why we don’t decide that all spark engines (those with spark plugs) will be fueled by methane. The stuff can be made from garbage, sewage, coal and with a little research probably waste wood, cornstalks and cobs. Does anyone know enough science to expound on the pros and cons?
Do you mean methanol? Methane is natural gas, while methanol is the liquid alcohol. Methanol is very poisonous, so much so that getting a few drops on your skin can cause serious health problems. Gasoline, ethanol and the other alcohols (isoproponol, butanol, etc.) are much more benign.
The best thing to do to methane is to catalyze it into synthetic petroleum products like synthetic diesel fuel. That’s what the Fischer-Tropsch process does. It basically rearranges the hydrocarbons into a more useable form aka compatible with our current liquid fuel infrastructure. Since the FT process is rather involved, it takes a relatively cheap feedstock to make it commerically viable with petroleum, even at today’s petroleum prices. That’s why coal is number 1 for FT processing - it’s cheap and plentiful. Waste biomass is also cheap bu