In April I bought a BLI Paragon3 Consolidation. It sounds good and runs well, except for one really bad issue.
If power to the loco is interrupted at all, the loco comes to a screeching halt for about a second or so! Then it starts moving again. Sound isn’t interrupted and lights stay on, so there must be a keep alive circuit on the decoder. In fact, the sound continues for about 15 seconds after power is removed from the rails.
But the loco goes through what I can only describe as a really idiotic startup routine for even the briefest power interruption - the loco stops dead and the cab light comes on for a second, shutting off after the loco starts moving again.
Anyone have any idea how to fix this really obnoxious behavior? If not, on Monday I’ll call BLI.
Mark, I do not own any Paragon 3 steamers, but I have read about a similar problem on other forums. Closely check the plug that connects the tender wiring to the engine. Make sure that the plug is firmly seated.
Ha ha! I just bought one and I noticed the same thing. The thing just stops on a dime detailing the cars behind it![#oops] Anyway, I cleaned the wheels and it did seem to help. Also, I noticed that anywhere the DCC bus crossed the track, the loco would stop there. Maybe a bit of crosstalk? I just finished moving the bus Away from the track and now we are problem free.
It’s pretty disheartening to think that this may be an issue with these locomotives in general.
Rich, I checked the plug and it’s fine. I also did a hard reset on the decoder and that didn’t help.
I’ve posted a short collection of raw video clips to illustrate what the problem is. The last couple of clips I have the loco inverted and am powering it through test leads. Note that the sound never stops, but the motor does, and when power is actually interrupted, the motor tries to play "catch up for a second or so before slowing back to the throttle setting.
By the way, all my other locos navigate these same areas without hesitation. Cleaning the track does help, but with six pick-up points on each side of the loco (4 drivers and two tender wheels), there should not be an issue.
Anyway, here’s the video:
I’ll be calling BLI on Tuesday - apparently tech support isn’t open Mondays. If they can’t alleviate this problem, they’ll find they have one less BLI customer.
Same goofy performance here. Ordered one in March, 2021. Didn’t notice the “catch up” problem because my track must be OK. I tried it today with intentional power interuptions and sure enough! I did notice that, compared to an older BLI 2-8-0, they’ve added a keep alive to the sound decoder but not to the motor portion. I will be standing by for details on BLI’s respons.
The motor did stop immediately whenever the clip jumped while I was holding it on the wheels, but I didn’t test for that specific thing. With all four drivers and two tender wheels on each side picking up power, you’d think rail contact would be pretty solid.
The track is very clean. The problem lessens when I run a brite boy over the track, but I’m not about to start doing that every time I fire up the layout. Especially when 0-6-0s and my Bachmann 10-wheeler run just fine on the same track.
I have a love/hate relationship with BLI. Up until the introduction of Paragon 3 it was more love. After P3 is when the real disappointment began.
Mind you, their tech support has been very helpful and they don’t hesitate to send replacement motors and decoders for me to do the repair rather than sitting in Ormond Beach for weeks (months?).
My latest two PRR K4s exhibited the exact problem you are experiencing. They would abruptly stop at specific points on my layout, now get this, the streamlined K4 stopped dead at locations A, B, C & D. The other K4 with practically identical running gear would stop at point C and two other spots E & F. nearly every time.
Emails to BLI got me two replacement decoders which demonstrated the exact same behavior. Yes, I believe there is a good-sized capacitor on the board but it has no relationship to the motor drive.
For that I installed a “Go-Pack” BLI’s new motor capacitor add-on.
If your board is Revision G or later there is a socket on the board for it. In the photo above I soldered it directly to the PC board per their instructions. This solved the problem. In the photo below I show the plug-in, rev. G board.
There were other programming headaches with several other P3 locomotives I have. Also the three P5a’s have had their motors and decoders replaced. These locomotives also suffer from intermittent motor stoppage. I have them
So having worked on BLI engines for years, I can say for a fact you do not have a GoPack and that the issue will more than likely be with the motor. Paragon 3 does not have a GoPack built in like Paragon 4, and the caps on it would only keep the engine running in the miliseconds if power is interrupted. Unless a GoPack was soldered on the decoder, that would not be the issue. Also too, while Paragon 4 may have it built in, it is much “smaller” than the GoPack is. So often when I upgrade say Paragon 2 or such to Paragon 4, many still opt for the full size GoPack (as it still has the plug for it), and I usually recommend it for large/heavy engines, or if pulling a heavy load, or lots of uphill grades, etc. as the larger the load, the less run time you get with a GoPack/Current-Keeper, etc).
If the decoder is a newer revision Paragon 3, it would have a new motor controller chip on it (you can tell if yuo look at the instructions for soldering a GoPack on their decoder, because one of the leads goes to the motor controller chip, which would look different if you have a newer one). That chip is a very good thing because it will stop the decoder from burning up due to a bad motor, but can cause fustruation as many have not the greatest understanding in the electronics and “blame” it on the decoder, etc. The chip they use now has its own built in protection in the chip for over current conditions from the motor. Meaning if the motor trys to draw to much current, the chip itself will cut power off towards the motor. So my guess is that it starts to over draw, the chip cuts power, then it seens its current "requirement’ lower, so it lets it run again.
If you have a DC power supply, you could test this by taking the shell off of the engine and attaching the motor leads (usually I remove the 2 wires from the connector on the decoder and clip in there) and hold the flywheel and set the power supply to allow, say, 3A of power. The shell being off is mostly so you
Thanks for all the helpful suggestions and feedback, everyone.
I talked with a very nice lady in BLI Tech Support today. She basically said this is an issue with, in particular, the Consolidations. She offered two options - send the entire loco back and they would replace the decoder - 6-8 weeks’ lead time - or remove the decoder and send it in and they would send me a new one - about a week’s lead time.
I asked about the “Go Pack,” and she said theose were designed expressly because of the Consolidation’s sensitivity to power interruptions. The decoder’s on board capacitors keep the sound going across minor power interruptions, but not the motor.
Because all my turnouts are dead frog, I opted to add the Go Pack and see if that resolves the issue. She said she thought it probably would, but if not, they would still replace the decoder. I’m a big fan of keep-alives anyway, so the Go Pack is on order.
Ed, your detailed explanation of the Go Packs you’ve installed, and the problems you’ve had with the Paragon3 units was especially helpful.
tsd, my Consolidation is very recent (Tech Support could tell from the item number), so the decoder is rev. H. It has the socket for the Go Pack, so it should be a matter of five minutes to get it installed and running once it arrives. I don’t know about the motor current, and while I have an MRC Tech 2 power pack, I don’t have a way of testing the amperage draw at stall (or maybe I do. I have a RRamp meter and could probably use that…). With the latest revision of decoder it’s probably got the overcurrent protection you talk about.
I have four early-era BLI Mikados that I might be interested in upgrading to Paragon4 if it’s not too difficult. I don’t suppose you’d be willing to post a detailed set of instructions? [:D] A YouTube video would be even more helpful… [tup][tup] IF you don’t have a YouT
Thats good, then it honestly should not be a bad decoder anyways. I usually recommend GoPack’s as well for any of my customers, even with a Paragon 4 because more capacity can’t hurt if talking about reliability for power, and the relativly low cost of them.
A test that you may be able to do, to rule out it being a motor verses power issue would be to simply take alligator clips and clip track power to the tender wheels and then run it upside down. Put light pressure on the wheels to simulate a load, and see if the issue replicates. If it does than a GoPack would not fix that; either the decoder, or the motor (my money is the motor) is bad. I know BLI has done it, as I have repaired engines that BLI had replaced the decoder in but the issue was the motor, causing the decoder to fail again later , and I know I have had a few where I replaced the decoder but did not check the motor and ultimatly the engine came back and at that point I test the motor and verify it was actually bad (of course with the later Paragon 3 and all Paragon 4 decoders, the chip itself will not blow now due to a bad motor).
In watching your video again, I just do not believe it is going to be a power issue. Generally if it is, the engine will completly power down, sound and all. The fact that it stops very abruptly like that and then starts again would really indicate to me that the motor controller just stops sending power out to the motor, and then the draw goes down, so it allows power to go back to the motor. Generally too if its a case of loosing power, I tend to see a little more momentem in the engine when it looses power, and then it may start back up, but would go through startup sounds. Does it happen on just speed step 1? Or again if you have the engine on the side or upside down with power to it, so no load, does it happen?
I know people give Paragon 3 a bad rap and hope 4 is better, but most do not understand that the majority of the issues are/were due to the motors or pickups issues and
Sorry for a second comment. Mine are being “approved” right now and I went back to the video again you had posted, and of course is what I get for not watching it to the end. It looks like at one point with the aligator clips on the wheel directly it did the same thing as well at some point? If thats the case and to make it easy, just connect both leads to the tender and run it, putting a little but of a load on the drivers and see if the same thing happens.
What I don’t get is that with no power to it, the sounds did stay on. That would tell me it must have a GoPack or is not rev H but is rev I which has the mini GoPack built into it. Rev I close to what is being called Paragon 4, but the true Paragon 4 is called 400-A now, looks the same as rev I but has 1 additional small plug on it, like the GoPack one but a 4 wire, and is for future use. Rev I if on the latest code for that would have pro mode for lighting.
This is important because it may be able to be tweaked via CV as there is a CV as to how long it should keep the motor powered when it looses power. You can check CV11 and increase it. Of course that CV only matters IF cv29 bit 2=0. CV12 is what is used before it shuts everything down. So it can be setup so if power is lose, motor shuts down first, and then it shuts sound/lights down.
Wow, tsd, you’re really getting into the weeds here! But I do appreciate it - clearly you know a lot about the electrical aspects of these locomotives.
The loco did not do the same thing inverted that it does on the track, unless I very briefly (short fraction of a second) break electrical contact by lifting the clip from the wheel. I think that’s what you saw. With a longer break in contact - closer to a full second and then on up) the motor reengages and races a bit, like the loco is trying to get back to where it should have been if it hadn’t stopped. Really weird.
In perusing the Paragon 3 tech manual, I see that CV 29 bit 2 is defaulted to 1. Since I haven’t cha
Yup, their support/repair is really among the best in the business, even if at times their turnaround can be quite a while, and they always strive to go above and beyond for their customers. The decoders have the revision on it so if you took the shell off you would more than likely see it is I rev which would have 3 caps on the end and the PCB is extended out instead of just on the side of the cap on the older revisions. If it was the “true” Paragon 4 then it would also have an extra small 4 pin connector between the speaker and 5 pin for additional lighting and such. So makes sinse that they confirmed it is a higher revision then since it runs like that. I probably should have just checked as well, but when I go into the folder for I rev software and go into the Consolidation folder, it showed the 2021 Consolidation run, effectivly confirming that is what was used.
Some of those CV’s were just never put into the Paragon 3 manual because they were really going to be a Paragon 4 thing. If you look at the Paragon 4 manual, you will find those CV’s listed there. BLI also outlines those CV’s in one of their own YouTube videos when they discussed the GoPack, which would have been on Paragon 3 and they mentioned those CV’s there.
So the manuals can be decieving though as they are not specific to each engine they produce. So it may be a default CV but they may have changed the default of certain CV’s to be something else for that production run. Those all go in with the sound fine as well. So when I program a decoder, the sound file is what then sets any “Default” CV’s to be something else. Best case would be to just read it on the track and see what it is (I programmed one on Paragon 4 board and checked what CV’s the code I have is for, which may have been updated already by them though).
So CV 11 would be related to when it shuts the motor down due to not receiving any DCC packets. It should be default of 2 based on the manual, which wou
I recently dusted off the three P5as and put them on the head end of a fifteen car passenger train. As built these engines are not very good pullers and I believe BLI did not consider any type of suspension (equalization) of the six drivers.
I have them all addressed with the same engine number to “MU” them.
After observing the three engines I found the drivers were randomly stopping and restarting as the train was progressing around the layout. All three of these engines have had the motors and decoders replaced by me using parts sent by BLI. A total of ten wheels pick up current from the rails. How can there be interruptions?
On the test track using a SproggII and JMRI I discovered that from a standstill, if I advanced the speed step too abruptly, say 0 to 30 the sounds would accelerate but not the motor. The only way to get the motor to respond was to reduce to speed 0 and wait for the air brake sound.
When I brought the throttle to idle, then advanced the speed say two or three speed steps at a time the engine would accelerate normally.
I had several Go Packs, Current Keepers and TCS Keep Alives® in the parts drawer and decided this was going to be a necessary “fix” short of replacing the decoders completely.
This was a successful operation overall. I had to remove the speaker enclosure to make room for the Go Pack but the sound didn’t seem to degrade at all and, to my ear, it actually improved.
On the third P5a I discovered that the replacement board BLI had sent me was a revision H so it was a simple matter of plugging the cap in. In reality I had used up the BLI caps and installed the TCS one, soldered to the clipped-off BLI 3 pin plug.
Right now, for any of the P3 decoders I’m going to keep I plan to add a keep alive.
I wonder how BLI feeds power to the TWO motors in the GG1? The most recent one I bought is a P3 and it exhibits no operational problem
I recently dusted off the three P5as and put them on the head end of a fifteen car passenger train. As built these engines are not very good pullers and I believe BLI did not consider any type of suspension (equalization) of the six drivers.
I have them all addressed with the same engine number to “MU” them.
After observing the three engines I found the drivers were randomly stopping and restarting as the train was progressing around the layout. All three of these engines have had the motors and decoders replaced by me using parts sent by BLI. A total of ten wheels pick up current from the rails. How can there be interruptions?
On the test track using a SproggII and JMRI I discovered that from a standstill, if I advanced the speed step too abruptly, say 0 to 30 the sounds would accelerate but not the motor. The only way to get the motor to respond was to reduce to speed 0 and wait for the air brake sound.
When I brought the throttle to idle, then advanced the speed say two or three speed steps at a time the engine would accelerate normally.
I had several Go Packs, Current Keepers and TCS Keep Alives® in the parts drawer and decided this was going to be a necessary “fix” short of replacing the decoders completely.
This was a successful operation overall. I had to remove the speaker enclosure to make room for the Go Pack but the sound didn’t seem to degrade at all and, to my ear, it actually improved.
On the third P5a I discovered that the replacement board BLI had sent me was a revision H so it was a simple matter of plugging the cap in. In reality I had used up the BLI caps and installed the TCS one, soldered to the clipped-off BLI 3 pin plug.
Right now, for any of the P3 decoders I’m going to keep I plan to add a keep alive.
I wonder how BLI feeds power to the TWO motors in the GG1? The most recent one I bought is
Really, just one man’s opinion, but for years we have continually read about BLI decoder issues, day after day, week after week. Maybe it’s time to say enough of purchasing their products. I can’t think of any other decoder manufacturer that has as many issues. And the sad part is they don’t seem to be getting any better. Why don’t they just totally change their product philosophy and put 3rd party decoders in their products. Why do they think their decoders are better than Tsunamis, LokSound or TCS? Just my $.02
Well, if you recall, at the start, BLI did use 3rd party decoders for their product. Mostly QSI and I believe some ESU. I believe (and making an assumption) what drove them to what they did was wanting full control of the product as to what they wanted to do. It also allows them to go and get their own sounds as well, which they have done by hiring or using an in house sound engineer to go to train yards to get their sounds. If they wanted to add a feature or change something, they could not simply just tell/ask QSI to add features just for them, etc. but if they make/design/engineer their own decoder, then they can add whatever features they want. And that did not mean oursourcing the actual development either like many US based companies do, but they actually have on their payroll as a direct employee an engineer who developes the hardware and software of their decoder. Many of the issues people have had with them are actually not related to the decoder, but due to a lack of understanding as to how it all works together just end up blaming the decoder. This is why I have had 0 issues with people when I upgrade their old QSI Paragon series to say Paragon 3 or Paragon 4 now. I’ve never had a decoder failure over all the years I have been doing that, except on the older ones in the off chance the motor was bad but not seen to be bad at the time and it causing t
tsd, with all respect, I think we must be reading the multitude of posts here in regard to BLI with very different understanding. I will agree that BLI shifting from QSI to proprietary decoders at first was a good move. That QSI no longer exists substantiates that. I’m just suggesting that it might be time for them to be making another switch to any/all of the LokSound, TCS, Tsunami products available. It seems to be working well (certainly not perfect) for Athearn, Atlas, Walthers, Scaletrains, Rapido, Bower, Intermountain, et al.
