BLI steamer issue: Is it true? And/or can it be fixed?

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
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I’m about to graduate from a Bachmann E-Z Command user to an NCE PowerCab user any moment now and am looking forward to being able to adjust and tweak CVs so that my locomotives run more smoothly. This raises a question that I have about BLI steamers.

I bought a BLI 2-8-2 MIke a couple of months ago and enjoy it very much. However, when using my E-Z Command to run my BLI Mike, the Mike starts out rather quickly (from dead stop to 8-10 MPH) and reaches prototypical top speed somewhere around 40% power. (At 40%, the Mike is just ripping down the track.)

I attributed this to the decoder setting and was expecting to be able to adjust the CVs with my new PowerCab in order to alter the startup voltage and/or speed steps. But after reading some comments by others on the forum here, and seeing a video clip on the new BLI GN S-2 4-8-4 that someone posted, it seems that this is a normal peculiarity to the BLI steamer locomotives.

Is that true? Do they all exhibit this kind of “jack rabbit” start? Is this something that can be adjusted so that it starts out slowly (or crawls) like the prototype would? Do the diesels suffer from the same plight? I guess I’m been spoiled by my Proto 2000 S1 and my Stewart VO-660. They crawl at low speed.

Thanks for your responses ahead of time…

Tom

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I have several BLI steamers and none shows that behavior (I do not have a Mike though).

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It should be able to run fairly slowly. A big help is that the wheel on the PowerCab is, like the knobs on the Digitrax DT400, an encoder, not a potentiometer. You can click speed up 1 step at a time. With only 300 degrees or possibly less of rotation to represent the full range of speed steps, it’s a lot harder to gradually adjust speed.
It probably won’t go quite as slow as your diesels. There’s a lot more ‘mechanism’ in a steamer, plus there is no back-emf to help. The BLI M1A runs nice and slow, no reason why the Mike won’t as well. You can help your cause by programming in just a small amount of momentum, now that you can do such things.

–Randy

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Tom, I have the NCE Power Pro only a couple of months. I have not experimented with all the settings possible but there are a pile of them from decoder adjusts to motor control of the loco.

I really do like being able to program on the main. Beats having to move a loco on and off the programming track.

I think you can get the manual for the Power Cab in PDF off of NCE’s web.

There is also a NCE forum on Yahoo.

Have fun!

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I just added a Mike to my layout and it doesn’t crawl along at slow speeds like my M1A or Hudsons. I just bought a new Lenz system that will allow me to adjust the CVs but that is still in the box. The Mike came in a blue box instead of the boxcar red box that they currently use so I’m guessing it is a previous generation. It was also priced well below current BLI offerings. My LHS listed it at $208 but I bought it during a 20% off sale. I noticed the sound isn’t quite as good as my other BLIs either.

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Well, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try playing with the CV’s to improve the situation…

CV3 is starting voltage. The idea is that you can play with this to get the loco to just crawl at speed step one. Some locos, like BLI, that have sound and dual DCC/DC capability typically do need to have this one fiddled. Since NCE supports programming-on-the-main while the loco is running, what I do is select the loco, set the speed step to 1, then play with CV3 until the loco is moving as slow as possible.

I’ve typically had to use this for the opposite reason - locos that don’t even start moving until I get the throttle up to 33% or more… But it may well help with jackrabbiting too.

NCE also supports two other relevant CVs… (at least my NCE PowerPro does, can’t see why the Powercab wouldn’t too). You have one for max voltage and one for mid-range voltage. Same idea. If the loco goes 240 scale MPH at speed step 128, you can cut the “max” voltage so that top speed is more reasonable. You can also set the mid-range so that the loco’s running approx. half speed at speed step 64… I don’t recall the exact CV # for these without looking at the manual (which is at home, and I’m not). Supposedly the system then evenly divvies up the speed steps from 1-128 between your three marks and you have a nice even speed range. That’s seemed to work well for me.

Now, you can also get into speed curves and totally customize the locos response to speed steps all through the range. You first have to set CV29 b

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I have a BLI Mike that I got for Christmas a year ago. It runs very smoothly and sounds great. It too, came in a blue box. The Powerhouse series, a step below the Paragon Series (red box) in detail. The electronics are the same though. I use a Digitrax Zephyr system and a DT400 throttle. Except for turning down the sound to 50% I haven’t had to tweak any of the CVs. It will crawl so slow you almost have to mark the track to see it move and reaches full speed at about 90% on the DT400. One other thing. The tender body sometime vibrated when you held down the whistle. A little Scotch tape fixed that. I think it sounds great! Just different than my Hudson. The Hudson was a Christmas present this year. It came in the red (Paragon Series) box with an extra set of drivers with traction tires. Haven’t needed the traction tiers. Again the only adjustment was to turn down the volume of the sound. It runs and sounds great! I love these BLI Steamers. Next is a Niagara and maybe a E6/7 B-Unit if I can find them for the right price.
The factory CV settings suit me and my small BRVRR layout, but there is no reason why they cannot be tweaked to satisfy another’s needs.
Good luck and enjoy your new DCC system Tom.

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Just be careful witht he PowerCab to not have more than one loco on the track when you program - or they will ALL be programmed. The manual shows how to wire up a DPDT switch to set up an isolated programming section, but you have to remember to throw the toggle.
There’s two kinds of programming on the main. The PowerCab and Digitrax Super Empire Builder (DB150) don’t have dedicated programming track outputs, so ALL programming is technically ‘on the main’. The PowerPro, Digitrax Zephyr, and Digitrax Super Chief all have dedicated programming track outputs that get connected to a dedicated track section. Regular programming takes place there, although these systems also support Ops Mode programming on the main. The difference is that in Ops Mode programming, the program commands are only directed to the selected loco, not everything sitting on the track.

–Randy

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I have three of the BLI heavy Mikes and all run slowly very well. Maybe the light Mike is different, but I wouldn’t think so.

Have you lubed the locomotive? That can make a big difference…

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Mark,

Yes I did. I lubed both the side and piston rods, as well as the motor, as BLI suggested in their manual. I did it to take care of the slight squeaking I was hearing, just before I broke it in.

Tom

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Tom,
I’ve got my BLI E7A set up for DCC running and it definitely does not show behavior you cited. It runs smoother than silk. Couldn’t ask for better running. [tup] [:D] [tup] [:D]

I’ve got a BLI light mike not yet set up for DCC. In analog it is faultless, I anticipate same performance in DCC. I’d better get cracking today and see what the mike does set up for DCC.

There is a lot of info on this forum re BLI locos and setting up same for DCC. Do a search you’ll get some good hits.

A quick tip: when programming BLI locos best to set loco at mute(no sound). The sound unit requires a lot of power and some DCC systems can’t handle programming the loco with sound on. Tony’s Train Exchange markets a power booster specifically for overcoming this problem with BLI. Try mute mode first, its obviously cheaper. Tony’s unit isn’t that expensive but still more expensive than $0. [:)]

The devil is in the details and when you get the right tweak from other NCE users you’re going to be pleasantly surprised with just how good, good running can be. [:D]

Jon

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That was my only idea. I didn’t have to tweak any of the CVs on my units. The only other thought -
After the loco starts, does it run smoothly? If not, maybe there’s excessive friction in the drive train somehwere. Also, once started, can you throttle it down to a slower speed, or does it stop just as abruptly? The latter might support the sticky drive train theory.

jondrd - great idea about turning off the sound! I never thought of that, and one of my Mikes has the “unable to read” problem with the NCE. But can you turn off the sound while on the programming track?

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Tom,

As you know I have two of the heavy mikes and they literraly crawl using my MRC PE. I’ve played with some of the CV’s to get the speeds where I want them. I’m sure once you get your NCE and start adjusting the CV’s you’ll have no problems.

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Mark,

I’m glad that you mentioned that. I have noticed that it will sometimes slow down somewhat slower than the speed it starts up with. I don’t remember but that may happen after it has been running for a while.

Mark & Jon,

I was reading through the PowerCab manual that I downloaded from the NCE web site. NCE has addressed (no pun intended) that issue so that the PowerCab throttle puts out the added current needed to program a sound locomotive so that you don’t get the UTR message anymore. Mark, if you find that annoying, you can purchase the PowerCab and use it as an additional throttle on your PowerPro system. (I remember you saying that you switched to NCE on the other thread.)

Tom

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I play with a friend’s Digitrax Super Cheif and all of the BLI’s start at speed step one (Or maybe two if the track is dirty) and get rolling around 1 mph give or take a little depending on what train is hooked to em. No jackrabbits in my fleet. They went out with the Tycos looong time ago.

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Thanks, Dave. That’s encouraging. [:)]

And thanks everyone for chiming in with your helpful hints, too. I plan on playing with the CVs (startup, max & min. voltages, as well as the speed steps and momentum) once I get my PowerCab. My primary reason for writing this was to determine if it was just a BLI thing or a decoder thing.

Once again, thanks for your response. This forum is great! [:D]

Tom

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Tom, I have three BLI steamers, first the Hudson which is well broken-in and a smoot runner. Next came the metal K4s, and like the newest, the Niagara, it can be programmed to start at count 1 using CV3, but if you put a load on it, I find that it takes a count of about 4, and a wait of about 15-20 seconds for the thing to decide what to do.

Here is what I have noticed, too. The blower hiss will die off during this wait-out, and you can hear, if you place yourself close to the engine, a soft clicking sound from the drivetrain. Then, suddenly it takes off quickly due to the increased throttle setting I had to give it based on experience. GRRRRRR!

BTW, when I wait for the loco to go into neutral, and take the train off it, it will begin to move when I put count 1 on the throttle, just as it did when I set CV 3!!

So, I have learned to live with it.[%-)][|(] I expect that they will eventually behave like my stellar J1d…recall that you and I have learned how much break-in these fine locos seem to demand.

Just for interest’s sake, try my test out on your Mike. Load it, set 4 on the throttle, and place your ear within 15" of the loco, with all other sounds quieted. You’ll hear the blower die down and the little tick, tick, tick as the motor senses signals from the decoder…I’m guessing.

Sometimes, I’ll shut down the throttle until the loco gives the neutral short hiss, and then crank on a slightly higher setting. That usually gets it going. In fact, if I set the throttle on either steamer at 14, it will commence to move within seconds.

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I am yet another owner of several BLI locos, including the heavy Mike, that exhibit none of the problems you described. I would think yes you do need to tweak some Cv values.

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Tom - I have several BLI steamers. A hudson and of course my Mike. I have the Super chief DCC system and I program the appropriate CVs and it crawls at slow speeds and hauls butt wide open. I don’t know much about any other DCC system because I have only had this one but i suspect you should have no problems programing it to behave the way you want it to.
Terry[8D]

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Thanks, Crandell and Terry. [:)] Hopefully it will come today…[sigh]

Tom